D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Oofta]

Depends on if you think the game should cater to what people prefer to play to or change their play to what the game demands. I personally think the game cater to shorter adventuring days. Under this lens it is a game design problem that they chose to create a game that doesn't.

I do agree that there should be more flexibility on how many fights you have per long rest. It's why I switched to the gritty rest rules. But that's the other thread - I think recovery of spells and other powers could be tweaked to allow for different styles. Some people do dungeon crawls, some to urban or short adventure arcs that logically span a few days, others do exploration. It's tough to come up with one standard that fits all, I think they leaned too much into the dungeon crawl aspect.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Modify memory is one of the few powerful spells that if it works (don't forget the target has advantage on their saves) that I agree with. It's also incredibly situational and potentially dangerous. You're using one of your rare 5th level spell slots of which you only ever get 3 and that's at level 18. I've never seen it used. Maybe others have.

Modify memory only grants advantage of you are in combat. IMO, given that modify memory is not a combat spell, if you use it in combat you're doing something wrong.

 

[Faolyn]

I didn't say that.

I said that following the guidelines of encounters suggested by WOTC, a fighter has about as many Action Surges a day as a full spellcaster has spells 6th level or higher.

However the extra action of the fighter doesn't progress in combat power over 20 levels as magic grows in supernaturnalness as they grow in spell level. A wizard gets more magicky and a rogue gets more tricky than a fighter gets violent. it's only tolerated due to niche protection.

The fighter is still the best warrior. However if it grew like magic does,the fighter would have far more impactful Action Surge and Second Wind.

I misunderstood your intent, then; apologies. But that was also my (our?) point: that a fighter would likely take forever to do what a wizard can do in one action.

Meteor Swarm is really not all that good of a spell, especially since you can easily hit party members.

And yet, meteor swarm continues to be a really good spell to use as an example for wizards dealing vast quantities of damage.

And honestly, at 20th level there's a good chance the party is dealing with either armies or really big monsters (since D&D frequently associates power with size--there's a joke to be made here, I'm sure). Both armies and really big monsters are things you can spot coming from a mile away. And meteor swarm has a range of a mile, so...

 

[FrogReaver]

On the bright side. These discussions have inspired me. I’m going to start some Class damage guides. Not so much on who does the most but more on tips and tricks on how to get the most damage out of your abilities and choices.

I’ll probably start with a Battlemaster or Wizard one.

 

[Mort]

I've seen the teleport example brought up a few times. IMO the single greatest use of teleport is as an 'Oh Crap' button. You can instantly and safely get the party out of a sticky situation. It's a great anti TPK spell.

Exactly this.

Teleport and it's lower level counterparts dimension door and even misty step are far and away the easiest, most reliable ways to flee.

Without these, running away is HARD in 5e. Generally speaking, PCs do not move faster than monsters.

IME, reliably fleeing from a fight without teleportation magic is only possible if the DM had planned for it or otherwise allowes it.

 

[Minigiant]

And each one used causes the wizard's ability in combat to fall. With no spells used outside of combat, the wizard can only cast spells in half(2) the rounds of combat in an adventuring day. If he uses 6-8 spells outside of combat, he's down to about 1 in each combat. Meanwhile the fighter is trucking away with 4 attacks a round and 2 action surges in most of the combats.

The point is combat isn't the wizard job. The wizard only needs to help.
A wizard can use 75% of their spells out of combat and mainly use combat cantrips and be fine.

As long as the wizard usually has a shenanigans spell available and useful sometimes, they are doing their job.

It's like a healer in an MMO. Healing is the primary job. Damage is extra gravy.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I do agree that there should be more flexibility on how many fights you have per long rest. It's why I switched to the gritty rest rules. But that's the other thread - I think recovery of spells and other powers could be tweaked to allow for different styles. Some people do dungeon crawls, some to urban or short adventure arcs that logically span a few days, others do exploration. It's tough to come up with one standard that fits all, I think they leaned too much into the dungeon crawl aspect.

Yep. And at least the DMG has optional rest variants. And whilst I don't think they solve all the issues perfectly, they solve a lot of them. So I have a tad hard time taking seriously people who refuse to even take the most rudimentary, fully rules-supported step to mitigate the issue and use the alternative rest rules, before complaining how the casters are a huge issue in their one-fight-per-long-rest games.

 

[Oofta]

Modify memory only grants advantage of you are in combat. IMO, given that modify memory is not a combat spell, if you use it in combat you're doing something wrong.

My bad, I misread. The only time I've seen it used was in critical role, the target probably had advantage for a different reason (and I only skimmed the spell).

 

[Mort]

On the bright side. These discussions have inspired me. I’m going to start some Class damage guides. Not so much on who does the most but more on tips and tricks on how to get the most damage out of your abilities and choices.

I’ll probably start with a Battlemaster or Wizard one.

That's always fun.

And as I mentioned up thread, as much as people always say casters are "more complicated" it is actually much easier to start up a caster than a competently built fighter. It's much better in 5e than it was in 3e, but there are still more traps for the fighter (and less options to course correct quickly).

 

[Oofta]

Exactly this.

Teleport and it's lower level counterparts dimension door and even misty step are far and away the easiest, most reliable ways to flee.

Without these, running away is HARD in 5e. Generally speaking, PCs do not move faster than monsters.

IME, reliably fleeing from a fight without teleportation magic is only possible if the DM had planned for it or otherwise allowes it.

It's not really that hard to flee. You don't have to run faster than your enemy, you just have to run faster than the dwarf.