D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Willie the Duck]

which john McClain as ti is crazier in the latter movies.

Any I guess, since we're trying to categorize what is really a spectrum of opinions.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, from what I see, the game seems very popular at the moment. WotC is not going to make a change that sweeping that might drive off their precious new players. Nerfing wizards as has been suggested is far bigger than the stuff that people have been complaining about lately. How do you think that would fly?

The popularity of the game should not be weaponized to inhibit addressing the game's own weak points, particularly when it comes to how its character and class progression affects its level 10+ gameplay. But as you say later, WotC is likely not interested in improving their 10+ level gameplay.

The issue is Batman hangs out with the JLA because he has plot armor. Specifically, he either has played 4D chess with everyone (ally and enemy), has the proper gadget, or both. Batman doesn't fight Superman like he's punching the Joker, he used kryptonite and anti-Superman armor, plus his array of vehicles, supercomputers, and weapons.

Batman isn't a fighter or a rogue, he's a high-level artificer. Or at best he's enough fiat to get whatever magical item he needs from the DM. Either way, he's not going to survive going toe to toe with anyone but other street-level heroes and villains. It's why in the classic game of "who would win" Batman always has to be qualified with how much knowledge and prep time he has.

That's not too say Batman doesn't contribute to the JLA, he's the world's greatest detective (when the plot allows it) with the world's greatest superpower (money). He can fight like a peek human, and has mastered several social skills. But outside of Gotham, he's sorely outclassed without his "magic" items and plot coupons.

There are systems that handle such power differences in superheroes well (e.g., Cortex, Fate, etc.) because of how these systems prioritize the simulation of the fiction and the narrative space of the characters, but 5e is not one of those games.

In my ideal world, that would be how it works. Fighter dominates in combat, wizard excels in non-combat shenanigans, and other classes split the difference.

This is more or less how it works in Worlds Without Number and a variety of other games that we hold in mutual appreciation.

But it's also worth pointing out how the AGE system implicitly divides roles in accordance with game pillars:

• Warrior: Combat
• Rogue: Exploration
• Envoy: Social
• Mage: Magic

 

[DND_Reborn]

Superpowered humans need their own class.

No, they need their own game.

 

[FrozenNorth]

To some degree, any divide between martials and casters comes because of a self-inflicted wound. Some Fighter fans shoot themselves in the foot, by insisting on playing a mundane character, and refusing to play a fantasy character. (But most seem ok with magic as items. So there seems a solution.)

I’m not sure it is a self-inflicted wound. Of the posters that I recognize that seek to limit fighters, most are DMs, and the one that isn’t doesn’t even play 5e.

 

[DND_Reborn]

How many retrenchments before the clear conclusion that fighters are underpowered and wizards are overpowered.

I don't know, I never made this claim:

First claim. Fighters are not hosed compared to casters.

 

[Oofta]

Batman isn't all that hard to model, all you need is a DM willing to provide you with the ultimate backstory and magic item:

Backstory:

You are ludicrously wealthy to the point gold has little meaning. You can procure ANY item (magical or otherwise) as needed. Size is no object, you need a castle and plot of land? You get a castle and plot of land. Artifacts MAY take a bit longer, but you can procure them with time(or just use your utility belt, below).

You can also use your wealth for any other purpose required, such as (but not limited to) acquiring information as needed.

Magic Item:
Utility belt: Produce ANY magic item as a bonus action. All requirements to use the item are waived as to you.

I'm being a bit tongue in cheek - but not much!

You forgot the most important thing. Plot armor of invulnerability.

 

[Maxperson]

My point is it would be a totally separate class to handle demigods, half demons, half Giants, half vampires, alchemical soldiers, and chemically enhanced men.

Those are races, not classes.

Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Blade, Alucard, Inuyasha, Steve Rogers, and TChalla should not be modelled with the same class as normal warriors of their race.

Superpowered humans need their own class.

I don't agree. Their races(or perhaps templates, depending on the individual) give them an edge in their class. They aren't a separate class. Basically, Steve Rogers just has enhanced strength, endurance and reflexes. That could be modeled with special abilities and enhanced stats. His increased fighting ability and reflexes could be modeled with a +4 to hit, dex saves and AC.

I want the fighter to eventually achieve Captain America by 20th level. The examples you are showing above were born with their abilities and improvements, or had them added later through a process that has nothing to do with class.

 

[TwoSix]

But it's also worth pointing out how the AGE system implicitly divides roles in accordance with game pillars:

• Warrior: Combat
• Rogue: Exploration
• Envoy: Social
• Mage: Magic

I keep meaning to look at Fantasy AGE, aren't they working on a 2.0?

 

[Mannahnin]

It's not the fighter.

My point is it would be a totally separate class to handle demigods, half demons, half Giants, half vampires, alchemical soldiers, and chemically enhanced men.

Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Blade, Alucard, Inuyasha, Steve Rogers, and TChalla should not be modelled with the same class as normal warriors of their race.

Superpowered humans need their own class.

I don't mind the idea. I think it's easier to do that sort of thing with level-up abilities, paragon or epic powers for higher level heroes. One can certainly start a campaign above first level. But I don't oppose the idea of coming up with a whole 1-20 superhuman class.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I’m not sure it is a self-inflicted wound. Of the posters that I recognize that seek to limit fighters, most are DMs, and the one that isn’t doesn’t even play 5e.

Which is a position I do not really understand. If you want a low powered world cap progression below level 20. Otherwise fighter have never caused power problems at my table.