D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[HammerMan]

The problem (for me) is that the fighter can keep up in combat just fine.

But outside of combat they just don't have near the options/abilities/mechanics of the caster classes.

and even in combat they only keep up with it with damage. They never have effects. they never change the game. they never get to play "shenaagins"

I think they have mostly nearfed spell casters enough (I would still work on it) but we need options for non casters.

 

[Mannahnin]

or we could give them more out of combat stuff. focus on how a fighter does social encounters how the rogue engages the exploration encounters ect.

Ars Magica made the mundanes essential in part because The Gift of magic inherently spooked animals and most ordinary people, making the Magi scary and gut-level untrustworthy. Unless a Magus had the Gentle Gift virtue, Companions (non-magical specialists) were absolutely essential for a lot of social tasks. (And even if the Magus had that virtue, it'd cost points they could have been spending on magical skills to get good at social stuff). Of course, this would be hard to do in D&D, which tries to cover lots of different settings, for many of which the idea that mages are inherently socially handicapped would contradict the existing background.

When people talk about making martials "better" there's scant suggestions on how to do it other than to make them into some variation of a comic book superhero with no details. I don't want my fighter to suddenly be able to shoot laser beams out of their eyes, so what else do we have?

All kinds of physical talents? Extraordinary athletic feats and deeds? The Salmon Leap of CuChulainn, for example? Or growing to giant size like Sir Kay in the Welsh version of the Arthur legends?

Part of the trick here is figuring out what we're trying to simulate and what works with our sense of setting. Traditionally mythological heroes, NOT wizards, often had extraordinary magical powers. That's not just a thing from superhero comics.

The Book of Nine Swords comes in for some ribbing, but it's chock-full of examples of special abilities and martial techniques which achieve supernatural or just extraordinary effects. There's a ton of content in there worth raiding.

At the same time I agree with you that we do still want at least a class or two which are simple to play.

Tasha's already took a tiny step in that direction by allowing Battlemasters to take manuevers that add their superiority die to things like performance, persuasion, intimidation etc.

More stuff like that can go a long way.

Yep.

 

[Remathilis]

Some handsome guy said this a few months ago:

I want to let out a battle cry that makes rank and file guys soil themselves and throw down their weapons.

I want to lift my chin mockingly at the enemy general and he has no choice but to charge me to defend his honor.

I want to hit a dude so hard his allies are demoralized.

You want nonmagical mind control. Got it.

 

[Weiley31]

I have played the 3e system, but am unfamiliar with that supplement.

It was the best method of doing Martials in 3.5 while also having three classes that were pretty much better than three of the regular classes that they were the closest analogies too. (The Warblade/Swordmage/Crusader were seen as being better/superior to that edition's Fighter/Monk/Paladin(?).)

But a number of peeps complained/dragged hard on the book for pretty much giving Martials the equivalent to Martial "magic skills" that had various different schools and even Initiator(Spell) Levels for the techniques. Or basically making Martials too "Anime" with it.

 

[HammerMan]

You want nonmagical mind control. Got it.

i want non magic everything.

I want in a perfect world for a 20th level fighter to have the options to accomplish anything a 11th level wizard can... so look at every spell from cantrip 1st-6th if there is an effect that 20th level fighter should have at some point had an option similar... that isn't even wish that iw 6th level spells.

edit: in this world wizards would also look more like modern warlocks... especially with invocation (mini feats) allowing for new abilities like speak with dead at will or mage armor at will (basicly making them cantrips)

 

[Vaalingrade]

You want nonmagical mind control. Got it.

You have never had a reaction to something without magic being involved?

Alternatively: Advertising is Magic!

 

[eyeheartawk]

There's a lot of complicated solutions being thrown about re: changing magic around.

How about a very simple one. Introduce a strain mechanic.

When a caster casts a spell they have to make a con check DC 11+spell level. Failure means they take a level of exhaustion = to half the spells level (minimum 1). And yes that means throwing out a high level spell and failing the check can kill the caster, them's the breaks.

DCC RPG does has something similar to this with cleric spells. Though that's based on successfully casting it or not, which isn't really a thing in 5E, you pretty much always "cast". But anyway, the idea is there and it works just fine. Adds a cool ticking clock element, with the building disapproval numbers.

 

[Mort]

Has anyone run A5E at the high levels to see how that fixes things for the other two tiers?

Interesting, I need to take a look at the books! I've run regular 5e as high as about 15 but haven't really touched A5e (barely glanced at the books even - which I really need to do!)

 

[Mannahnin]

You want nonmagical mind control. Got it.

I don't think that's accurate at all.

Rules to simulate extraordinary abilities of intimidation, leadership, or the like aren't mind control. The only one of his examples that comes close is "no choice but to charge me", but there's absolutely no diagetic reason this couldn't be a nonmagical ability of a high-level character, defended against with a Saving Throw as normal.

 

[HammerMan]

You have never had a reaction to something without magic being involved?

Alternatively: Advertising is Magic!

yes every con man is too. Leverage is a TV show about wizards. A team wizards.