Cinematic Fights and R.A.W.

[takyris]

Hey, all,

Something came up while I was railing in all the various martial arts threads. I thought about ways to make fights more cinematic without changing any rules or adding new feats. Basically, thinking of options I could make available to players by letting them know that I'd consider them possible. For the most part, I'm thinking and talking about the acrobatic and not-always-realistic stuff that happens in fight scenes.

I'm almost certainly not talking about any kind of individual attack. If somebody wants to say that their character does that stupid cartwheel kick like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible 2 (my apologies to anyone who has taken enough Capoeira to actually be able to do it well -- I insult Tom, not you), and said character has ranks in Tumbling and Martial Arts feats, I've got no beef with that. It's an attack, same as any other. No bonuses, no penalties. If he rolls poorly, then I say that his hand slipped on the sand as he tried to cartwheel. If he rolls well, then I say that he caught his attacker by surprise. Ta-dah.

I've found that Balance, Tumble, and Jump are all great ways to let people do something creative in order to get that +2 bonus that they tell us GMs to give out for "not in the book" ideas. Negate an opponent's +2 cover bonus by dropping and doing a low kick to catch the back of his legs? Balance check, DC 15 -- low kicks require balance. Dive to the side of a hanging bridge in order to hang over the side and use it as cover against the dude with the pistol? Jump check, DC15, with synergy bonuses from Climb as you grab the side and swing yourself under.

For the game I'm planning, I think that these cinematic but "no new feats necessary" rulings will work well. I did have a couple of questions to kick out, though.

1) If a character has Improved Combat Throw, Combat Reflexes, and Agile Riposte, can he use both of them in the same round? If A, our hero, is attacked by B, his dodge target, who misses him, A can take his Agile Riposte attack. Then, if C attacks him and misses as well, and A has another AoO for this round from Combat Reflexes, can he use that as well? Nothing in the books says he can't. In fact, while Agile Riposte has a 1/round rule officially in there, Improved Combat Throw does not. A person with Combat Reflexes and Improved Combat Throw and Improved Trip could conceivably throw multiple attackers and then get a free attack on each one should he succeed. (Not terribly unbalanced, mind you, since that's a lot of feats to spend to get that ability, AND you have to succeed on each Trip attack, and risk being tripped yourself if you fail.)

2) Dastardly Villain and Bold Hero each have Agile Riposte and have declared each other as their respective Dodge targets. It's Bold Hero's turn. He attacks Dastardly Villain and misses. Dastardly Villain chooses to use his Agile Riposte ability and take an attack of opportunity on Bold Hero -- but Dastardly Villain's AoO misses. Can Bold Hero now use HIS Agile Riposte ability to take an AoO on Dastardly Villain? According to the rules as written, it's legal -- and I can see an in-game explanation of Dastardly Villain parrying Bold Hero's attack and stabbing viciously, only to have Bold Hero see the trick at the last moment, block it aside, and continue with his original attack.

3) Is there anything in the rules that I've missed that would support using ranged weapons to attempt Disarm checks? Given the number of times that Batman knocked the bad guy's gun out of his hand with a well-thrown Batarang, I'm inclined to agree that it's possible. I don't see it, though, and I'm not sure how lenient or strict to be. Should shooting a baseball bat knock it out of someone's hand -- or would you just cinematically portray that under the "strike an object rules"? That is to say, it's completely permissable to fire a gun at the baseball bat someone is holding, and since the average bat has hardness 5 and 5 hit points, a large gun could easily turn that thing into splinters -- at which point you declare that he's been disarmed. If it's hard to envision disarming a baseball bat with a gunshot or thrown boomerang, how about a handgun?

Anyway, just trying to construct rulings in advance so that my players will know that their creativity will be rewarded -- but that, at the same time, I won't let them abuse loopholes.

-Tacky

 

[takyris]

Half a bump, but with additional questions:

4) According to the errata, getting up from prone is a move-equivalent action that does provoke an AoO. While someone is prone, they receive a -4 to their effective defense. So, if Al gets up from prone, and Biff takes an AoO on him, does Biff's defense take a -4 penalty because he's still prone when he starts moving? Or is he considered "up" as soon as he declares that he's standing?

5) Shooting someone through a windshield is given pretty straightforward rules -- you fire and, on a hit, subtract the hardness and hit points and apply the remaining damage to the target. What about other situations where a bullet (or, for that matter, any high-impact weapon) could definitely go something, but it isn't transparent like glass? For example, Al is standing atop a balcony with a BIG HONKING GUN and wants to fire at Biff, who is hiding under a table. Biff is completely covered by the table, but Al knows where he is.

Here's what I'm thinking, so correct me if I'm wrong:

Treat the door as concealment, not cover -- Biff has 100% concealment, but Al knows which square he's in. So Al fires, rolls something that would have hit Biff, and then rolls well on his 50% miss chance for concealment. Treating the table like an ordinary door, which has Hardness 5 and 10 hit points, we would subtract 15 points of damage from whatever was rolled. Does that make sense to other people?

If Biff were only partly under the table, I'd ditch the concealment and treat it as normal cover -- but if the attack hit the cover (and would have hit Biff but for hitting the cover), I'd roll damage and make sure that some absurdly lucky roll didn't do enough damage to get through the table and hit Biff.

This same rule would let some guy with an axe use power attack to make a big nasty attack on someone THROUGH a door -- sure, they have only a miniscule chance of hitting, but it feels cinematically cool for that ax-head to punch through the door right next to the character's face.

6) If someone is prone, they take a -4 on melee attacks. Do they also take a -4 on strength checks related to melee attacks? For example, if someone is prone but wants to trip his opponent, he takes a -4 on the touch attack -- but does he take a penalty on the opposed Strength check? Also, would you let someone with Weapon Finesse: Unarmed or Weapon Finesse: Grapple use Dexterity instead of Strength when attempting to trip someone?

Thanks!

-Tacky

 

[Black Omega]

4) According to the errata, getting up from prone is a move-equivalent action that does provoke an AoO. While someone is prone, they receive a -4 to their effective defense. So, if Al gets up from prone, and Biff takes an AoO on him, does Biff's defense take a -4 penalty because he's still prone when he starts moving? Or is he considered "up" as soon as he declares that he's standing?

I'd count him as still down. But I'd also allow a tumble check to avoid the AoO, the 'kip up' being a tried and true movie manuver.

5) Shooting someone through a windshield is given pretty straightforward rules -- you fire and, on a hit, subtract the hardness and hit points and apply the remaining damage to the target. What about other situations where a bullet (or, for that matter, any high-impact weapon) could definitely go something, but it isn't transparent like glass?

Treat the door as concealment, not cover -- Biff has 100% concealment, but Al knows which square he's in. So Al fires, rolls something that would have hit Biff, and then rolls well on his 50% miss chance for concealment. Treating the table like an ordinary door, which has Hardness 5 and 10 hit points, we would subtract 15 points of damage from whatever was rolled. Does that make sense to other people?

Sounds good to me. It's a classic bit when someone is using a heavy calibver weapon is to shoot through the cover to get to the person.

6) If someone is prone, they take a -4 on melee attacks. Do they also take a -4 on strength checks related to melee attacks? For example, if someone is prone but wants to trip his opponent, he takes a -4 on the touch attack -- but does he take a penalty on the opposed Strength check? Also, would you let someone with Weapon Finesse: Unarmed or Weapon Finesse: Grapple use Dexterity instead of Strength when attempting to trip someone?

I don't think the -4 effects the strength check. But the WF is a good question. The realist in me suggests no, since all things being even, the bigger, stronger person is not being budged by someone smaller and weaker. But it would allow a more finesse based grappler.

As far as using a ranged attack to disarm, I'd generally treat it as an attack against a held object. I can't see a .454 Casull knocking a bat out of someone's hands. But I can certainly imagine it blowing off the top half of the bat, making it useless as a weapon.