Ciphers and Comprehend Langauge (Forked from DM stuff)

[Obryn]

Well, if language is just a codified means of transferring information, then a cipher can be considered to translate that information from one language to another, albeit a custom language that is not widely understood. Certainly, there's an argument for that applying to simple ciphers (the Caesar cipher, for example, merely translates into a language of all-new words - the grammar even remains the same).

Yep, it's a tough question! And one I've thought about way, way too much with my recent obsession with encrypted radio transmissions from the Cold War. (The Conet Project - look it up!)

Part of it is, "What does this spell actually do?" If it is magically able to extract the writer's meaning from the ether, then it goes one way. If it's a very capable magical translator that knows lots of languages (an arcane Babelfish, if you will), it goes another way.

I lean towards the Babelfish-style definition. I think that extracting something as ephemeral as "meaning" from a written sentence is a stretch. You also would get weird results for obscured messages this way - you know, classic cloak & dagger spy talk.

Let's say a spy is reporting to his superior that his informant has produced a sizable document that works in their favor. He might say something like, "Our goose has laid an egg. The sun is shining brightly." His words talk about geese and sunshine, but his meaning does not.

If the spell is meaning based, it would translate to, "Our informant has given us something. It's good!" If the spell is an arcane Babelfish, it would translate to the stuff about the goose. Basically, if it extracts meaning, the spell is giving you more information than speaking the language would give you. I don't think that's very fair or reasonable.

You also have varying levels of encryption, from the dirt-simple substitution ciphers to the unbreakable one-time-pads. I think you could make a case for something like a simple letter substitution (though I wouldn't), but letting a low-level spell translate a one-time-pad-encoded message is basically reading an unknown person's mind at a distance and at a certain point in time; the document has no meaning without its key. In none of these cases, though, would a native speaker of a language know enough to give you the real meaning behind the message.

And that's kind of what I think of when interpreting these spells. I think of it as getting the assistance of a native speaker. If a native speaker of the language could easily translate a message, then it's translated in the most obvious way possible. If it's encoded, that goes a bit too far.

-O

 

[billd91]

If the spell is meaning based, it would translate to, "Our informant has given us something. It's good!" If the spell is an arcane Babelfish, it would translate to the stuff about the goose. Basically, if it extracts meaning, the spell is giving you more information than speaking the language would give you. I don't think that's very fair or reasonable.

Pretty much full agreement here.

You also have varying levels of encryption, from the dirt-simple substitution ciphers to the unbreakable one-time-pads. I think you could make a case for something like a simple letter substitution (though I wouldn't), but letting a low-level spell translate a one-time-pad-encoded message is basically reading an unknown person's mind at a distance and at a certain point in time; the document has no meaning without its key. In none of these cases, though, would a native speaker of a language know enough to give you the real meaning behind the message.

I also don't let language comprehension magic translate personal runes/marks, seals, or signets. Someone with the appropriate knowledge skill may be able to dope them out, but not through the ability to simply know the language, even as a native speaker. The language magic can tell that they are some form of identifying mark, but not the specifics of that mark.

 

[the Jester]

Oh, I definitely think comprehend languages should be limited to, you know, comprehending languages. Ciphers and codes should defeat CL, otherwise nobody would ever bother to use them.

 

[Obryn]

Oh, I definitely think comprehend languages should be limited to, you know, comprehending languages. Ciphers and codes should defeat CL, otherwise nobody would ever bother to use them.

True! I do think there could be something of a case for it, though, so I figured I'd make a post. After all, at some point in the development of a language, just about everything was a code of some sort. I mean, at what point does a private, invented language become comprehend-able. But then we get into intentional obfuscation vs. unintentional obfuscation, at which point the spell is analyzing motives, and ... well, that's that.

But like I said - I only posted this because I've been thinking way too much about language, meaning, and communication of late.

I also don't let language comprehension magic translate personal runes/marks, seals, or signets. Someone with the appropriate knowledge skill may be able to dope them out, but not through the ability to simply know the language, even as a native speaker. The language magic can tell that they are some form of identifying mark, but not the specifics of that mark.

Yep, I can see that too. I mean, if I translate a string of numbers from English to German, I get ... well, the same string of numbers.

-O

 

[delericho]

Part of it is, "What does this spell actually do?" If it is magically able to extract the writer's meaning from the ether, then it goes one way. If it's a very capable magical translator that knows lots of languages (an arcane Babelfish, if you will), it goes another way.

That's it in a nutshell.

In actual fact, as soon as I start thinking about it too closely, I start to run into real problems with comprehend languages and the like. Do they handle slang, local phrases, and language drift? If it's like having a native translator, does he provide a literal word-for-word translation, or does he interpret to make more sense of the message? What about dead languages?

The problem is, go too far in either direction and you hit problems. If it is a literal translation, then it may well prove to be of limited use. If he interprets, then why can't he interpret codes? (He is, after all, a native speaker.)

There's also the other question: what is a language? Could the spell translate Morse Code? Semaphore? If so, why not a Caesar cipher? If not, why does it handle Dwarven runes?

And so on.

Of course, the truth is that it's not really intended to be thought about too deeply. It's a fantasy element for a fantasy game world, and should be interpreted to provide the most fun.

(And, actually, I have some problems with WotC declaring that language problems are in the "not fun" category. So much for Daniel Jackson, Indiana Jones and Wesley from Angel.)

You also have varying levels of encryption, from the dirt-simple substitution ciphers to the unbreakable one-time-pads.

True, although the levels of encryption available to a culture will vary greatly. For most fantasy worlds, I would argue that there's unlikely to be anything more sophisticated that the Enigma, and even that's really pushing it.

(Please note, I did say most fantasy worlds! )

That said, I'm actually with you as regards comprehand languages and ciphers, if for no other reason than that it's almost certainly more fun to require the PCs to have to hunt for the key.

In the other thread, I alluded to an Eberron one-shot I might well consider running. The premise is actually quite simple: in Sharn the PCs are approached by a mysterious femme fatale who wishes to engage their services. A cunning agent (wizard/artificer/technologist) in her employ has been working on a new ritual/device that can break any code. His last message indicated some sort of breakthrough, but he has since disappeared...

(Naturally, such a device would be of great interest to many factions, both to possess it for themselves and to prevent others from having it. And, of course, in keeping with the theme, the adventure would include several coded messages, either resolved as skill challenges of, even better with the right group, as puzzles for the players themselves to figure out.)

 

[drothgery]

(And, actually, I have some problems with WotC declaring that language problems are in the "not fun" category. So much for Daniel Jackson, Indiana Jones and Wesley from Angel.)

I think TSR did that when they made comprehend languages a low-level spell, actually.

 

[Obryn]

Of course, the truth is that it's not really intended to be thought about too deeply. It's a fantasy element for a fantasy game world, and should be interpreted to provide the most fun.

Oh, I absolutely agree! Encryption is just one of my obsessions at the moment, and I'm always thinking of ways to work those obsessions into my D&D or Call of Cthulhu games. So, one thing leads to another, and...

True, although the levels of encryption available to a culture will vary greatly. For most fantasy worlds, I would argue that there's unlikely to be anything more sophisticated that the Enigma, and even that's really pushing it.

Very true! However, one-time-pads are both exceedingly simple, and completely unbreakable when used properly, and I think it's reasonable for some fantasy cultures to have invented them. OTOH, they're also very vulnerable to getting snatched, which presents its own complexities in a magical society.

In the other thread, I alluded to an Eberron one-shot I might well consider running. The premise is actually quite simple: in Sharn the PCs are approached by a mysterious femme fatale who wishes to engage their services. A cunning agent (wizard/artificer/technologist) in her employ has been working on a new ritual/device that can break any code. His last message indicated some sort of breakthrough, but he has since disappeared...

(Naturally, such a device would be of great interest to many factions, both to possess it for themselves and to prevent others from having it. And, of course, in keeping with the theme, the adventure would include several coded messages, either resolved as skill challenges of, even better with the right group, as puzzles for the players themselves to figure out.)

Oh wow, that sounds like a great hook! I hope it goes well!

-O

 

[delericho]

Very true! However, one-time-pads are both exceedingly simple, and completely unbreakable when used properly, and I think it's reasonable for some fantasy cultures to have invented them. OTOH, they're also very vulnerable to getting snatched, which presents its own complexities in a magical society.

It occurs to me that, in a magical society, there's no reason a secret message would look like a secret message at all. It could be brewed into potion-form (or, even better, two potions, sent with different couriers, with the message only revealed when they're consumed together), or hidden 'under' the text on a regular message (secret page?). It could be bound into a gem, and revealed only when the key-word is uttered. Heck, it could be magically/psionically locked into the memory of the messenger, where even he can't access it.

Oh wow, that sounds like a great hook! I hope it goes well!

Actually, I should thank you. I've been looking to run something in Eberron for a while, but couldn't quite find just the right hook. It was replying to your post on the topic that caused everything just to fall into place.

 

[Obryn]

It occurs to me that, in a magical society, there's no reason a secret message would look like a secret message at all. It could be brewed into potion-form (or, even better, two potions, sent with different couriers, with the message only revealed when they're consumed together), or hidden 'under' the text on a regular message (secret page?). It could be bound into a gem, and revealed only when the key-word is uttered. Heck, it could be magically/psionically locked into the memory of the messenger, where even he can't access it.

You know, I had never thought in this direction, but you're exactly right. That's very clever. Encoding messages into other messages or images (steganography) is already done today, but the potions are an intensely cool idea.

Hah. Magical steganography! Brilliant!

Actually, I should thank you. I've been looking to run something in Eberron for a while, but couldn't quite find just the right hook. It was replying to your post on the topic that caused everything just to fall into place.

Well, heck. Glad to help then.

-O

 

[coyote6]

Hah. Magical steganography! Brilliant!

Steganomancy?

FWIW, if you want to preserve space for Indy, Daniel, etc., then you can always house rule comprehend anguages to giving a bonus to Decipher Script (or whatever skill serves the same purpose) and letting it work instantly on spoken languages. Then set DCs low enough that the spell allows ordinary people basic communication, and it the spell can still serve its basic purpose (facilitating conversation) while still allowing for people to be the main factor in deciphering ancient scrolls.

(For a campaign I was thinking of, I considered having comprehend languages only work on "living" languages, just to preserve some of that adventurous archaeology flavor.)