D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[Bae'zel]

To me, circle casting should be an "epic moment", the kind of thing you read about occasionally in fiction (eg books, comics etc) and usually part of a villain's big plan, or a last ditch effort of the good guys to defend a city from an invasion.

I wonder if there are ways to adjust the circle casting rules to make them take more time or resources... there was a scene in one of the Drizzt books where some Drow clerics and/or wizards were doing an elaborate ritual to the point of exhaustion.

 

[Umbran]

I really do suggest you consider going for a walk though.

Mod note:

And I really do suggest you stop making this personal. It comes across as snide and disrespectful, and risks you being removed from the discussion.

 

[Thommy H-H]

No they are not. In fact, the most common example is the range extending issue, which only requires one additional caster. Earth tremor to wipe out all low level creatures only requires 1. A 35-ft radius spirit guardians only requires 2. Nearly unbreakable concentration only requires 2-3. Etc.

Yeah, an extra 1,000 feet per caster, maxing out at 1 mile. I'm not totally sure that's going to break anything - in 10 years of DMing this game, I don't think anyone's ever been out of range of anything else in an encounter. And Distribute requires everyone to maintain Concentration...so no Concentration spells for anyone else while that's happening. Which might not matter much, but it is a cost.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Regarding what this does to worldbuilding… Honestly, the kind of magic that exists in D&D already completely destroys any possibility of a medieval-esque society. Eberron is what a setting that takes D&D’s magic seriously as an element of worldbuilding looks like. If you’re comfortable hand waving the impact of magic on your setting of choice, or have a workaround like making the most world-altering magic incredibly rare, I’d say just keep doing that with circle casting.

Agree. If you take Player Options = Worldbuilding into account, most published and homebrew settings assumptions would fall apart.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah, an extra 1,000 feet per caster, maxing out at 1 mile. I'm not totally sure that's going to break anything - in 10 years of DMing this game, I don't think anyone's ever been out of range of anything else in an encounter.

Obviously I can't speak to your games, but outside of a dungeon or building, being able to do something at 1000 feet with only 1 helper is huge. I don't know your gaming group just ignores anything outside of the immediate encounter area (which is common, going way back to 1e when DMs ignored the room full of orcs two rooms down that would clearly hear the PCs battling with the kobolds in another room). But many official adventures would have a big impact. See my earlier example of using earth tremor to just wipe out the first goblin cave in Phandelver without even going in.

And Distribute requires everyone to maintain Concentration...so no Concentration spells for anyone else while that's happening. Which might not matter much, but it is a cost.

Not accurate. It only requires one helper to maintain concentration. So you could cast spirit guardians, have someone else maintain concentration, and cast blade barrier.

for example, an Eldritch Knight, who is proficient in Con saves and is hard to hit (being a fighter and all), who could never cast a spell like spirit guardians or blade barrier, is now the one maintaining concentration on it as the main caster casts another big concentration spell. It kinda nerfs the whole reason why the concentration mechanic exists in the first place.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Obviously I can't speak to your games, but outside of a dungeon or building, being able to do something at 1000 feet with only 1 helper is huge. I don't know your gaming group just ignores anything outside of the immediate encounter area (which is common, going way back to 1e when DMs ignored the room full of orcs two rooms down that would clearly hear the PCs battling with the kobolds in another room). But many official adventures would have a big impact. See my earlier example of using earth tremor to just wipe out the first goblin cave in Phandelver without even going in.

A longbow's range is more than half that already. I just don't see it ever mattering enough to alter the balance of an encounter significantly. And with Earth Tremor specifically, it hits everyone within range except the caster - I wouldn't rule that the secondary caster is also unaffected, and they need to be within 30 feet. So, again, there's an associated cost, especially at low levels.

Not accurate. It only requires one helper to maintain concentration. So you could cast spirit guardians, have someone else maintain concentration, and cast blade barrier

Right, but that's just transferring the Concentration to someone else, which doesn't make it any harder to break. The whole point is to have multiple casters maintining the Concentration together. Otherwise it's no more broken than just having two casters casting different Concentration spells.

 

[Charlaquin]

To me, circle casting should be an "epic moment", the kind of thing you read about occasionally in fiction (eg books, comics etc) and usually part of a villain's big plan, or a last ditch effort of the good guys to defend a city from an invasion.

I wonder if there are ways to adjust the circle casting rules to make them take more time or resources... there was a scene in one of the Drizzt books where some Drow clerics and/or wizards were doing an elaborate ritual to the point of exhaustion.

What if the time required to cast a circle spell was multiplied by the number of casters? So, a 1-hour cast spell cast by 8 people takes 8 hours. Maybe make an exception for 1 action (or bonus action) spells so they’re still practical to circle cast in combat. Or maybe don’t, if you’re worried about these breaking combat anyway.

 

[BenjaminPey]

As many have said already, some corner cases may obviously arise, especially with strangely worded spells like these which refer to "all creatures in range" (earth tremor — which is not a spell in the 2024 PHB —, animal shapes — an 8th level spell! —, what else?). But I still don't see how this would "break a lot of games". So they approach the cave and, without even knowing what's inside (or let's say after a good recon to be charitable), they cast their super duper earth tremor to kill everyone inside. No questions asked, no prisoners saved. Klarg's dead, so is Sildar. Where do you go from there? And even if it works somehow, and the game is always of this "go there, kill everything inside" type, so as to this tactic will work every time everywhere, will this group of players constantly do it without anyone saying "ok guys, so maybe this is boring and we should rule it doesn't work like that?" Really?

 

[Sacrosanct]

A longbow's range is more than half that already. I just don't see it ever mattering enough to alter the balance of an encounter significantly. And with Earth Tremor specifically, it hits everyone within range except the caster - I wouldn't rule that the secondary caster is also unaffected, and they need to be within 30 feet. So, again, there's an associated cost, especially at low levels.

Most spells will have a greater impact than a single arrow.

The whole point is to have multiple casters maintining the Concentration together.

No, it's not. I just mentioned this. The whole point is the opposite. Only one person has to have concentration. the point is to either have enough people maintaining it so it will never likely be broken, or shift it to a lower caster who has better CON saves, freeing you up to cast yet another powerful concentration spell you wouldn't normally be able to do. The bit about only one person concentrating is a big deal.

 

[Thommy H-H]

Most spells will have a greater impact than a single arrow.

Depends who's firing it.

No, it's not. I just mentioned this. The whole point is the opposite. Only one person has to have concentration. the point is to either have enough people maintaining it so it will never likely be broken, or shift it to a lower caster who has better CON saves, freeing you up to cast yet another powerful concentration spell you wouldn't normally be able to do. The bit about only one person concentrating is a big deal.

You're the one who said a few posts back that it's trivial for a whole party to be casters. If it's game-breaking to allow one caster to cast a Concentration spell and then offload Concentration onto another caster so they can cast a second Concentration spell, why isn't it game-breaking for each of those casters to cast their own Concentration spells at the same time? Mechanically, the effect is the same - two spells cast by two characters, each maintaining Concentration on one of them. You're still maintaining the one Concentration per caster hard limit, you just have the option to potentially shift around who concentrates on what.