D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[Thommy H-H]

Thinking about it, I really like the idea of having a Wizard and their Eldritch Knight protector who also takes on the burden of concentrating on their big spells. That seems like a cool character dynamic within the party. Thanks, circle casting!

 

[Sacrosanct]

Depends who's firing it.

You're the one who said a few posts back that it's trivial for a whole party to be casters.

I said it's unlikely that for most issues, you need to hire NPCs as most classes in 5e are casters. I did not say it's trivial for the entire party to be casters.

If it's game-breaking to allow one caster to cast a Concentration spell and then offload Concentration onto another caster so they can cast a second Concentration spell, why isn't it game-breaking for each of those casters to cast their own Concentration spells at the same time? Mechanically, the effect is the same - two spells cast by two characters, each maintaining Concentration on one of them. You're still maintaining the one Concentration per caster hard limit, you just have the option to potentially shift around who concentrates on what.

I'll repeat what I said, because you seem to be missing this important distinction. The effects are very much not mechanically the same.

for example, an Eldritch Knight, who is proficient in Con saves and is hard to hit (being a fighter and all), who could never cast a spell like spirit guardians or blade barrier, is now the one maintaining concentration on it as the main caster casts another big concentration spell. It kinda nerfs the whole reason why the concentration mechanic exists in the first place.

Add to that, a caster, out of spell slots, can still be a helper. Can still maintain concentration on a spell they normally could never do. That is significantly mechanically different for obvious reasons.

 

[Bae'zel]

What if the time required to cast a circle spell was multiplied by the number of casters? So, a 1-hour cast spell cast by 8 people takes 8 hours. Maybe make an exception for 1 action (or bonus action) spells so they’re still practical to circle cast in combat. Or maybe don’t, if you’re worried about these breaking combat anyway.

I’m not worried about breaking combat, just making circle casting “feel” more involved and epic?

 

[Zardnaar]

No they are not. In fact, the most common example is the range extending issue, which only requires one additional caster. Earth tremor to wipe out all low level creatures only requires 1. A 35-ft radius spirit guardians only requires 2. Nearly unbreakable concentration only requires 2-3. Etc. Only the 24 hour long spells requires several, but that's just one part of the issue. All the other issues do not require more than 1-3 helpers.

Players generally dont optimize the party.

Its a subsystem the word no exists.

And there's a lot better things they can do if they build a party around things.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, is did the game really need another thing to massively bump caster power over martials?

When martials close their eyes, they see exactly what they deserve over the casters.


"Circle Fighting".
The warriors of the forgotten realms have mastered the secretes of fighting, achieving combat prowess by cooperation beyond what humans might have thought possible.

Multiple weapon-wielding allies can work together to improve their combat ability. They choose a lead attacker or defender, and the other support, usually by spending their action for an attack or their bonus action for a defense circle ability.

Combined Strike:
For each supporting melee combatant adjacent to the Fighter or the target , a Fighter can increase their damage with all attacks in that round by 1 weapon die.

Hail of Arrows:
The leading attacker chooses a single square as the center of this ability. For each supporting ally, they increase the radius by 5 ft. The leading attacker makes an attack against every creature in the radius.

Formation Defense:
The leading defender determines all the supporting allies defense, and when anyone in the formation is called to make a saving throw, they can use the highest proficiency among their group. (THey still use their own ability score).

 

[Thommy H-H]

I'll repeat what I said, because you seem to be missing this important distinction. The effects are very much not mechanically the same.


Add to that, a caster, out of spell slots, can still be a helper. Can still maintain concentration on a spell they normally could never do. That is significantly mechanically different for obvious reasons.

I read what you said the first time. I just don't agree with you. The Concentration mechanic is balanced by the fact that you can only maintain it on one thing at a time. The fact that you can lose it is neither here nor there, because you can easily optimise a caster for maintaining Concentration (it's not like a full caster can't have high Constitution, or get access to proficiency with Con saves with the right feats or magic items). What you can't ever do - at least with any official product - is break the one Concentration at a time limit, which Distribute doesn't alter.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, or it's not useful, but it doesn't break the game's maths. It doesn't give you a free 'Concentration slot' or anything.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I read what you said the first time. I just don't agree with you.

You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the rules:

"As long as at least one caster who contributed to the spell maintains this Concentration, the spell’s effects remain active."

 

[Thommy H-H]

You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the rules:

"As long as at least one caster who contributed to the spell maintains this Concentration, the spell’s effects remain active."

What? Those are the rules I've been talking about. Either 1) You have Concentration on one spell maintained by multiple casters, in which case the cost of doing that is it prevents those casters from using other Concentration spells or 2) You have your primary caster break Concentration to cast a second Concentration spell, while a secondary caster maintains the first one. In which case, all you're doing is shifting Concentration to another caster who can't use a Concentration spell themselves (and who might be better able to maintain Concentration if they take a hit), but that's hardly game-breaking. It's two Concentration spells going at the same time, but it's also two casters maintaining Concentration, so no different than if each caster had cast their own spell.

 

[Charlaquin]

I’m not worried about breaking combat, just making circle casting “feel” more involved and epic?

I agree, that’s why my initial suggestion was making an exception for action/bonus action spells. But for longer cast times, multiplying the time required by the number of casters could help make circle casting feel like a bigger undertaking.

 

[Sacrosanct]

What? Those are the rules I've been talking about. Either 1) You have Concentration on one spell maintained by multiple casters, in which case the cost of doing that is it prevents those casters from using other Concentration spells or 2) You have your primary caster break Concentration to cast a second Concentration spell, while a secondary caster maintains the first one. In which case, all you're doing is shifting Concentration to another caster who can't use a Concentration spell themselves (and who might be better able to maintain Concentration if they take a hit), but that's hardly game-breaking. It's two Concentration spells going at the same time, but it's also two casters maintaining Concentration, so no different than if each caster had cast their own spell.

An eldritch knight can't normally concentration on a spirit guardians or blade barrier spell
A first level caster can't normally concentrate on a 5th level spell
A caster out of spell slots can't normally concentrate on any spell.

All of these things allow the main caster to cast another concentration spell. It can allow several powerful spells to be going off at the same time when they normally couldn't. That's big.

these are not insignificant things that you keep glossing over.

You keep saying, "so no different than if each caster had cast their own spell." but it's not that. It's allowing someone to maintain concentration on a spell they can't normally cast themselves. Either due to level, class, or being out of spell slots.