D&D 3.x City of the Spider Queen/3.5 Haste

[Plane Sailing]

A 17th level caster would not follow your example to hit a single target (unless he was an idiot, had an ill-prepared spell list, or otherwise had no other choice). At that level, there are far more effective spells for dealing with 1 foe at a time, all of which can be cast in a single round (in both 3.0 and 3.5).

I'm intrigued. Assuming you don't want to risk save or die spells, which do nothing if the target saves, what are the "far more effective spells" for dealing with 1 foe at a time?

 

[dvvega]

I am assuming you want to play the module as written with the least pain/suffering to yourself.

Take the Lesser Metamagic Rod Idea HOWEVER give them only enough charges in their respective rods to handle the encounter as written (so if they had 4 lightning bolts memorised, they would require 2 3.0 rounds of haste). So that would be 2 quickened lightning bolts + 2 normal hence 2 charges. And additionally the 35,000 price tag drops dramatically.

Of course this would be mean and nasty to the PCs, but it will be an exact duplicate of what the module states happens.

 

[The Souljourner]

I'm currently playing in CotSQ, and I can tell you, unless these spellcasters are all by themselves, Haste is STILL a good idea first round of combat. It hits all their allies now. The wizards in our group cast it pretty much every battle, and we all love it. We're just as twinked out as the next group (I'm playing a dwarven werebear barbarian) and we're still being challenged. Granted, the first few fights weren't that bad (the roper was a little tough), but the DM assures us it gets harder very quickly.

Don't hand out 35k magic items to every wizard in the campaign, that's just lunacy. The PCs will pick them up, and then where will you be? Have the spellcasters cast intelligently... it's not like you should need advice on how to play a wizard as a DM.

-The Souljourner

 

[Jeremy]

*Jeremy continues to scratch down notes and gather ideas*

 

[Scion]

The preceding message was brought to you by the "Everything in the Entire Game is Underpowered Committee".

Obviously someone who doesnt have a proper fix in mind, but wishes to criticize everyone anyway.

Remember, things are changed now and then. Especially in edition changes. They make improvements each time, and sometimes a few steps the wrong way as well. Bringing out the parts that arent useful enough and mentioning them is pretty important. The mystic theurge was made for this very reason, cheap work around.

In any event, I would still suggest the feat. Either one that allows the use of the old haste, or one that grants a special type of 'quicken' which changes the spells to move equivalent instead for a greatly reduced cost.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm intrigued. Assuming you don't want to risk save or die spells, which do nothing if the target saves, what are the "far more effective spells" for dealing with 1 foe at a time?

Forcecage
Maze
Disintegrate
Empowered maximized [mastery of elements sonic substituted] scorching ray
Otto's irresistible dance (if this guy has mastery of elements, he could have arcane reach)
And the list goes on, and on, and on...

I agree with Tyrol, but I'm also familiar with Eldren's posts from the WotC boards, where (s)he argues that everything in the game is balanced simply by virtue of the fact that the DM can impose RP restrictions or single out overpowered characters for special negative attention. Fact is, if a tactic necessitates the DM "becoming better at his craft" (i.e. bending the game) just to deal with it, and that tactic is available only to one class, AND that tactic is a "must-use" to the point where the designers of the adventure have admitted it, that tactic is probably on the bent or broken side.

It's a good thing that haste is gone, IMHO. dcollins' suggestion was an excellent one; just have the spellcasters drop a slow on the party instead.

 

[htetickrt]

I've been running CotSQ since before 3.5 was released, and have moved gradually to a 3/3.5 hybrid, with everything converted but the spells. If you're looking for a minimum of work, I'd highly suggest this, as the preponderance of spellcasters in the adventure would make sorting through their spells for discrepancies tedious, in my opinion. Even if the party is solidly 3.5, you can still run the bad guys 3E; the better classes of the former, along the tendency of players to create killing machines (and DMs like me to facilitate this :\ ) should at least partially balance the extra boost all the drow casters would get in that case.

Then again, this advice may be somewhat biased by the fact that my party is about four effective levels above the suggested for the adventure--and powerful even for that, so I've had to raise the encounter level of nearly everything. If you're curious as to how this all has worked, the story hour in my sig is of this campaign. I'm afraid there will be a few more updates before I do my semi-conversion, though. [end shameless plug]

 

[Tyrol]

Thanks Ruleslawyer.

A 17th level wizard is capable of casting any spell in the PHB (that his DM has let him have access to), which leaves a myriad of options. Ruleslawyer listed a few of them, and as he noted there are many more.

I also agree that slow would be a great replacement, or 3.5 haste if there are multiple allied enemies (as the Souljourner suggested).

 

[Kalanyr]

A 17th level wizard with access to every spell in the PHB is non-existant. Work out the price of scribing every single one of those spells at 150 GP per spell level. The wealth of a freaking 20th level character amounts to less than 300 Spell Levels scribed, thats not even half the spells in the PHB.A Boccob's Blessed Book slightly increases this but its still nowhere even close, not to mention since said wizard will have 0 magic items he is what is known as doomed anyway. It's even worse for NPCs since they only get about 1/3 of the wealth of PCs, woohoo 100 Spell Levels.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Forcecage
Maze
Disintegrate
Empowered maximized [mastery of elements sonic substituted] scorching ray
Otto's irresistible dance (if this guy has mastery of elements, he could have arcane reach)
And the list goes on, and on, and on...

None of those do the job though... Maze and forcecage just put them out of the way, disintegrate needs a roll to hit *and* allows a fort save which pretty much negates it, ottos irristable dance requires a touch attack (arcane reach noted though), metamagiced scorching ray is the only decent guaranteed damaging spell amongst them (and that is 2nd level, metamagiced up!). I note that you don't mention the laughable Polar Ray, Horrid Wilting is still great but is an area effect spell for targetting lots of people and not just one.

Don't get me wrong, of course there are lots of good spells that can be cast - but Tyrol is over-egging his position when he states that fireball wouldn't be used to hit a single target unless the caster was an idiot. Of course there are circumstances when fireball happens to be the best thing to throw at a single target. What if he just ducked round the corner? Without line of effect you can't target him with any of those other neat spells but a fireball is a spread effect which goes round corners, and a maximised, empowered fireball might be a very good choice under those circumstances.

(the whole argument about a wizards ability to cause lots of hp damage by targetting lots of foes is pretty specious really. You might as well count up all the damage that a fighter could do by whirlwind attacking or great cleaving through lots of foes too. When it comes down to it, it is the ability to do damage to the main foe that really counts, nobody likes to be relegated to clearing out mooks (and both wizards and fighters have ways of making that easier).)