D&D 3.x City of the Spider Queen/3.5 Haste

[borc killer]

You are right about the rampant use of haste by every arcane caster... I had debated, creating a Drow only Ring of Improved Haste, which simply changed 3.5 hastes cast by the wearer into 3.0 versions... but finally decided against it.

Make it an elixir. Have it give them 3.0 haste for 1d4+4 rounds and then leave them dazed for 1d4-2 rounds after. That way when the PCs get them it would not be game breaking but you would not have to change much.

Borc Killer

 

[Endur]

I made a lot of minor changes. I think its necessary to treat the module as a resource book. These are the NPCs and this is their history, but their tactics will depend on the situation and circumstances, not what the author in the book wrote.

I'll make a post later with some of the details of changes.

I'd be very interested in hearing of some of the changes you made Endur.

Tactics and circumstances change everything, but nobody likes to always get ambushed and this group often deviates from the well trodden path. The whole point of running a module for me is to cut down on the prep work, but it seems I may have gone into this one without all the necessary tools now.

 

[Plane Sailing]

See my reply in your post in house rules.

Basically if you don't want to change the module, leave it as 3.0 haste and give 3.0 haste back to all your PCs. Then the module will play through pretty much as the designers expected wrt arcane firepower.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Freak magical accident. All the spellcasters died, and were Reincarnated as Chokers.

Drop their level by 1, recalculate their Str, Dex, and Con, and then let they wreak havoc with Quickness [Su].

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Actually, I have never had a problem with the 3.0 haste, the problem is with other parts of the system that nearly necesitate its use.

In addition to that, my current dm feels that the 3.5 version of haste is one of the more broken things he has ever seen and completely refuses to allow it near his game.

As far as it goes though, perhaps you could simply make it a feat. It'll take away some of their ability, but it will give them the spell back without having to worry too much.

While you are at it though, reducing Quickens cost to something useful might simulate the effect enough you dont have to worry about it much at all.

There was something tossed around before about changing it to +3 or having something else very similar that changes the spell to being a move action and costing +2. The second doesnt sound too bad really, although still a bit weak in some ways, but it may fill in the hole you are looking at.

Also, as for it being cast early on, any personal buff that is actually going to be used once combat has commenced has to be good. It has to be worth casting, this isnt always the case, especially in 3.5. I've made several different feats to work around/fix this problem, if you are interested I'll post those too, but I think they are way outside of what you are looking for

 

[Eldren]

As Hyp can likely attest (no doubt with significant frustration), I've always been pretty vocal on the WotC boards about having no problems with the 3.0 Haste. I'm currently running my party through this module as well, and the Haste has definitely helped my foes challenge the party; they're all 9th level, and twinked to the Nth degree. The foes have a challenge hitting the freaking Shaman in the party because of his use of "Divine Shield", combined with his having purchased a +5 shield. He's got an impressive Armor Class, no doubt.

I think that 3.0 Haste was just fine the way it was written; yes, it allowed spellcasters to get off more than one spell a round, and got even nastier when they started throwing in quickened magic, but that's part of the strategic design of a spellcaster. They are the "Fighters" of the spellcasting world; the difference is, what the Fighter does with their huge selection of feats, the Wizard and other spellcasters do with their spells. For example, consider this: I just finished playing a Paladin/Knight of the Chalice wielding a +1 Evil Outsider Bane Holy greataxe. She had the feat "Sanctify Martial Strike" from the Book of Exalted Deeds. With the casting of the spell Divine Sacrifice, and giving up 10 hit points (which she could easily spare, having had 225 hit points at 17th level), she was doing a simple d12+8+11d6+1d4 of damage on her first hit against an evil outsider, which we're facing many of at this point. With the average of a d12 being approximately 6, and the average of a d6 being approximately 3 (yes, I know it's actually 3.5, but we'll drop the fractions here and work with actual dice rolling), and the average of a d4 being 2, she was dealing, on that first successful strike, 49 points of damage on average. That's from a single strike. She had three more attacks to make in that round, and those attacks against an evil outsider would still be at d12+8+6d6+1d4, for an average of 34 points of damage more on each successful strike. So in one round, she's dealing an average, on four successful hits with having cast nothing more than a single spell the previous round, a grand total of, averaged, 151 points of damage.

The Wizard, meanwhile, could bust off with a maximized Fireball, perhaps altered with the Archmage High Arcana ability "Mastery of Elements" to deal sonic damage (since so few things have sonic resistance), and if they were using 3.0 Haste, and cast two maximized Fireball spells in a round, would only deal 120 points of damage for the round. Throw in another spell with a quickened Fireball, which likely isn't maximized at that point, for an average of 30 more points of damage, and you're talking an average of 150 points of damage from three spells, compared with four attacks, and two of the spells were maximized.

Sounds pretty balanced to me.

I realize there are "deadly" combos that the PCs could play with when using 3.0 Haste, everything from a True Strike/Disintegrate combo to even True Strike/Harm (if we're again talking 3.0) from a Cleric with a single level of Wizard or Sorceror (or the use of the spell Anyspell from the Forgotten Realms), but the bottom line is that for the most part, the rules provided just enough for a Dungeon Master to challenge his or her players in spite of their use of 3.0 Haste that it just shouldn't have been an issue. Intelligent players, even those on the cusp of superior intelligence who recognized the easily-spottable tactic of using 3.0 Haste, should encourage a Dungeon Master to become better at their craft, not to nerf the powers in the first place.

But it's an old argument; 3.5 did what it did to Haste, and most people either deal with it or house-rule it back to 3.0 (as I've done). It doesn't mitigate the fact that 3.5 went too far in nerfing Haste and several other spells. I was honestly surprised to even find that a few of the individuals from the "Nerf Magic Foundation" on the WotC boards thought WotC went too far with nerfing Haste and a couple of other spells. It's odd to find your "enemies" fighting on your side.

Ultimately, you're going to have to do what makes the most sense with your campaign, particularly as it relates to making City of the Spider Queen 3.5 compliant. But for the most part, I've just found that it doesn't require a lot of adjustment. Most of the spells being used are of the same name, and the given rule for 3.5 is that if 3.5 hasn't specifically updated something, the 3.0 version stands until that something is updated, and a lot of the material from the Forgotten Realms just hasn't been updated to 3.5 yet. This makes running COTSQ a lot easier.

My party is just now at the point where they faced off against the small bit of House Morcane left over, so they still have a long way to go....

 

[monboesen]

You fail to see the real problem of the spell. Its not that its powerfull, that hardly matters as both characters and their enemies use it (though it is a different matter if only one part has the ability to use it). As such it cancels itself out.

The problem is the no-brainer part of it. If 3.0 Haste exists it will be the first spell any caster, with the abiilty to do so, will cast in any combat. There is just no other tactic that can compare. That would be the case no matter what level the Haste spell was.

That at least is my gripe with it. Anything that is used so exlusively needs to be changed for the sake of diversity. The same argument can be used for many other of the spell changes, but lets not rip op that entire debate again.

The basic truth is that in order to use the module, you either have to let both pc's and npc's have acces to haste or work out other tactics for the npc's by yourself (and is that not part of the joy of being dm?).

 

[Scion]

The problem is the no-brainer part of it.

The problem, as I see it, is actually that there are so few other options that matter. So the problem is more with the system than the single spell.

There is just no other tactic that can compare.

Well, if by 'compare' you mean something along the lines of spells then maybe, but again that is a problem with the system.

But then, the game is always about getting bigger bang for the buck, so every tactic is about this sort of thing.

The fighter types get better weapons as often as possible, pick up feats to become better, gain levels and thereby get extra attacks in a round.

The caster types have, or had, haste. That was effectively it. Quicken has too high of a cost, and there is nothing else to pick from. That is the real problem. Noncasters can still do their thing most of the day and keep going, and can generally deal more damage to single targets, and sometimes multiple, than the caster can. So the only way to keep up is a cheap work around, the spell, but that is the way the game works all over (like the theurge).

So, without haste then there isnt any way to do something fairly important. Being able to get up those buffs as needed, drop a few attack spells, whatever.

A cheap work-around for something that needs to be fixed is better than nothing at all

 

[dcollins]

The preceding message was brought to you by the "Everything in the Entire Game is Underpowered Committee".

 

[Tyrol]

As Hyp can likely attest (no doubt with significant frustration), I've always been pretty vocal on the WotC boards about having no problems with the 3.0 Haste. I'm currently running my party through this module as well, and the Haste has definitely helped my foes challenge the party; they're all 9th level, and twinked to the Nth degree. The foes have a challenge hitting the freaking Shaman in the party because of his use of "Divine Shield", combined with his having purchased a +5 shield. He's got an impressive Armor Class, no doubt.

I think that 3.0 Haste was just fine the way it was written; yes, it allowed spellcasters to get off more than one spell a round, and got even nastier when they started throwing in quickened magic, but that's part of the strategic design of a spellcaster. They are the "Fighters" of the spellcasting world; the difference is, what the Fighter does with their huge selection of feats, the Wizard and other spellcasters do with their spells. For example, consider this: I just finished playing a Paladin/Knight of the Chalice wielding a +1 Evil Outsider Bane Holy greataxe. She had the feat "Sanctify Martial Strike" from the Book of Exalted Deeds. With the casting of the spell Divine Sacrifice, and giving up 10 hit points (which she could easily spare, having had 225 hit points at 17th level), she was doing a simple d12+8+11d6+1d4 of damage on her first hit against an evil outsider, which we're facing many of at this point. With the average of a d12 being approximately 6, and the average of a d6 being approximately 3 (yes, I know it's actually 3.5, but we'll drop the fractions here and work with actual dice rolling), and the average of a d4 being 2, she was dealing, on that first successful strike, 49 points of damage on average. That's from a single strike. She had three more attacks to make in that round, and those attacks against an evil outsider would still be at d12+8+6d6+1d4, for an average of 34 points of damage more on each successful strike. So in one round, she's dealing an average, on four successful hits with having cast nothing more than a single spell the previous round, a grand total of, averaged, 151 points of damage.

The Wizard, meanwhile, could bust off with a maximized Fireball, perhaps altered with the Archmage High Arcana ability "Mastery of Elements" to deal sonic damage (since so few things have sonic resistance), and if they were using 3.0 Haste, and cast two maximized Fireball spells in a round, would only deal 120 points of damage for the round. Throw in another spell with a quickened Fireball, which likely isn't maximized at that point, for an average of 30 more points of damage, and you're talking an average of 150 points of damage from three spells, compared with four attacks, and two of the spells were maximized.

Sounds pretty balanced to me.

You fail to mention that the Wizard's 150 damage (from those 3 spells pulled off in one round of 3.0) affects a TWENTY FOOT RADIUS and therefore is MULTIPLIED by however many targets are within that radius. It is not uncommon to catch five or more enemies in a fireball.

Using your own example, your 3.0 wizard who averages 150 damage and "sounds pretty balanced" is likely really doing anywhere from 450-900 damage, depending on how many enemies there are (3-6). The main reason to cast a fireball spell is to hit multiple targets. A 17th level caster would not follow your example to hit a single target (unless he was an idiot, had an ill-prepared spell list, or otherwise had no other choice). At that level, there are far more effective spells for dealing with 1 foe at a time, all of which can be cast in a single round (in both 3.0 and 3.5).

It wouldn't even be a stretch for a party to encounter 7+ enemies at once, in which case your 3.0 wizard could 'average' upwards of 1000 damage in a single round (if in tight quarters especially).

Haste in 3.0 was clearly way overpowered and strayed from previous versions of haste. As it is, 3.5 haste remains a good, usable spell even after being nerfed.

Edit: Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention that for your Knight/Paladin you assumed successfull attack rolls for your averages. If we assumed failed saves on a level TEN wizard casting a fireball (or heightened fireball), targeted to hit five enemies.... 10d6 fireball ranges from 10-60, effectively averaging 35 damage... thats 5 * 35 = 175. And so a level 10 wizard could outdamage your level 17 knight/paladin on average, and that's in 3.5.