MrFilthyIke
First Post
Treebore said:
I guess I'd need to read it more, I flipped through it and nothing snagged me, but *I* have no history w/ Judges Guild. Need to re-look at it, as CSIO looks interesting. :\
City State of the Invincible Overlord
- Thread starter johnsemlak
- Start date
I guess I'd need to read it more, I flipped through it and nothing snagged me, but *I* have no history w/ Judges Guild. Need to re-look at it, as CSIO looks interesting. :\
D+1
First Post
The comparison between the new and old City State is VERY favorable. The map of the city is precisely the same (BTW, I have a CC2 copy of it that I made at http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/cc2/cc2.htm ). It is a very faithful update to 3.5, which means it retains almost all of its VERY OLD 1E quirkiness/charm. It's definitely old-school stuff. They both have a very random feel because much of the original effectively WAS random. This is both a strength, and perhaps a weakness.
The Judges Guild paradigm from even those very early days was that the individual DM is responsible for bringing a campaign to life and not only can but MUST alter material to fit what he wants. The City State is thus a tremendous wealth of shops, owners and workers, and easy-to-start-up adventure hooks at every turn. But you can't expect it to all be SEAMLESSLY coordinated to present a glorious, cohesive whole - it IS what you MAKE of it. It's going to seem random and "thin" if taken just as-written right off the page, but when you start emphasizing what you want to emphasize, filling in your own details, and glossing over or removing the parts that you don't care for or don't fit how you want it to be, then it works FANTASTIC. They don't draw much of a distinction about what's "official" because in their view each DM ought to be using only what he wants from it anyway.
That said, it's a city with a very cosmopolitan population (primarily human but goblins are not at all uncommon, and orcs, even trolls and ogres can be seen, plenty of barbarians); it's VERY religiously tolerant (there are hundreds of deities/religions, good and evil alike); has a somewhat Byzantine legal system (which is to say that it actually has several DIFFERENT legal systems (each with their own jurisdictions and methods); slavery is legal and actually rather common; bumbling constables but EXCEPTIONAL secret police; and of course a LE dictator running it all. The very architecture of the city itself is different from any other RPG city you're going to find. It's unique in that buildings are built in massive blocks where getting to a building at the middle of the block will often mean needing to go through several different buildings/businesses/residences. It has some VERY wide streets.
IMO, it's worth every cent despite the LONG wait for it's actual arrival. The Wilderlands setting that goes around it will undoubtedly be too and I wait VERY impatiently for it.
The Judges Guild paradigm from even those very early days was that the individual DM is responsible for bringing a campaign to life and not only can but MUST alter material to fit what he wants. The City State is thus a tremendous wealth of shops, owners and workers, and easy-to-start-up adventure hooks at every turn. But you can't expect it to all be SEAMLESSLY coordinated to present a glorious, cohesive whole - it IS what you MAKE of it. It's going to seem random and "thin" if taken just as-written right off the page, but when you start emphasizing what you want to emphasize, filling in your own details, and glossing over or removing the parts that you don't care for or don't fit how you want it to be, then it works FANTASTIC. They don't draw much of a distinction about what's "official" because in their view each DM ought to be using only what he wants from it anyway.
That said, it's a city with a very cosmopolitan population (primarily human but goblins are not at all uncommon, and orcs, even trolls and ogres can be seen, plenty of barbarians); it's VERY religiously tolerant (there are hundreds of deities/religions, good and evil alike); has a somewhat Byzantine legal system (which is to say that it actually has several DIFFERENT legal systems (each with their own jurisdictions and methods); slavery is legal and actually rather common; bumbling constables but EXCEPTIONAL secret police; and of course a LE dictator running it all. The very architecture of the city itself is different from any other RPG city you're going to find. It's unique in that buildings are built in massive blocks where getting to a building at the middle of the block will often mean needing to go through several different buildings/businesses/residences. It has some VERY wide streets.
IMO, it's worth every cent despite the LONG wait for it's actual arrival. The Wilderlands setting that goes around it will undoubtedly be too and I wait VERY impatiently for it.
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johnsemlak
First Post
Aaron2 said:
That's a good point. The different formate and style of the 'above ground' and 'below ground' section of the city is a bit wierd.
I think one rationale for that is that the dungeons are expected to be places where PCs will be adventuring. The chapters describing the city's dungeon are much more akin to a module. ELs are given for rooms, monsters and NPCs are more fleshed out, and more info is given on potential reactions. The above ground sections are all much briefer, and it woudl appear that it is not expected for the PCs to engage in much combat there, though they may visit shops to buy goods or services, find info, etc. Some buildings are indeed given very sketchy details, including several temples and other locations containing 100+ people and doubtlessly many rooms and other contents.
In my early opinion I don't think that's a bad rationale for how they organized it.
It sounds great - I hate scenarios & sourcebooks where NPC stat blocks waste half the text (Bastion of Broken Souls, I'm looking at you). 
In most cases F12 or Wiz7 is fine, especially if it's not an NPC the party are likely to fight; the GM can use the 3.0 DMG stats off the peg. An even better approach though is to list the NPC's important stats - for a fighter that'd be just AC, hp, initiative bonus, attack roll & damage, Fort Ref & Will saves, and a skill bonus, usually level +3 - which can be done in 1 line of text, plus any unusual magic items (if it's another +1 cloak of resistance, don't bother - it's more common and worth less than the mundane full plate he's wearing).
In most cases F12 or Wiz7 is fine, especially if it's not an NPC the party are likely to fight; the GM can use the 3.0 DMG stats off the peg. An even better approach though is to list the NPC's important stats - for a fighter that'd be just AC, hp, initiative bonus, attack roll & damage, Fort Ref & Will saves, and a skill bonus, usually level +3 - which can be done in 1 line of text, plus any unusual magic items (if it's another +1 cloak of resistance, don't bother - it's more common and worth less than the mundane full plate he's wearing).
johnsemlak
First Post
Endur said:
Haven't checked thoroughly yet, but the denizens of the underground sections (sewers, dungeons, etc) are more thoroughly described both mechanically and flavor wise. Again, this is likely because it is believed PCs are more likely to engage against such NPCs.
The NPCs in the city locations above ground are generally given brief (1 sentence to one-two paragraphs) descriptions of motivations, past history, allies, etc. There's a lot of them. Over 350 locations are described briefly, and each one contains one or more personalities.
One thing that struck me was how many of them had magic items (just about everyone described). It seemed like every owner of an inn, tavern, warehouse, whorehouse, or other establishment had some sort of magic item. Had a real 'Keep on the Borderlands' feel in that way. However, the power level of the NPCs was generally not low (most NPCs having a few NPC or PC class levels) so that may be in line with their CRs.
MonsterMash
First Post
It is a really good product and retains most of the good from the original. I like the NPC download as well.
As a big fan of the original (one of the first RPG products I bought) I am well satisfied and will try to get a review done soon. I actually have two copies of the original version (bought a new one as the original is very battered).
S'Mon, I'll try to remember it for Sunday.
As a big fan of the original (one of the first RPG products I bought) I am well satisfied and will try to get a review done soon. I actually have two copies of the original version (bought a new one as the original is very battered).
S'Mon, I'll try to remember it for Sunday.
PatrickLawinger
First Post
Csio
I am glad some people seem to like the City State so much. I did my very best to hold true to the original, while bringing things up to more "modern standards."
I'll try to answer a few of the questions/comments here.
This book is designed as a DM aid and is not really for first-time DMs or people completely new to RPGs. The details provided for the city are kept deliberately generic so that you can use the city with minor tweaks in virtually any setting. Between comments on our boards, a few emails, and some people I know personally, I know people that are using the revised CSIO (or the original) in Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Erde (Troll Lords), and the Wilderlands along with use in homebrew settings or other worlds.
The greater detail provided for the NPCs and rooms of the Dungeons beneath the City State have two reasons; first, these are more "adventure" based so more detail is provided for the DM, the DM can always change, alter, tweak, or eliminate whatever they see fit, second, the Wraith Overlord material was written by Scott Fulton with a different style and detail than that provided in the original CSIO by Bob Bledsaw and Bill Owen. I did my best to remain faithful to all of the original material I had.
Why not more detail/stats? Well, there wasn't really space. As it is, the book was longer than I was supposed to write (shhhhh). I tried to provide what I thought were "necessary" stats for shokeepers, etc. with plans of including a more generic NPC appendix for those times a fight might start. In the end, we provided some generic NPCs as a download created by Scott Greene and Clark Peterson. Stat blocks take up space, when you have hundreds and hundreds of NPCs, well, they take up LOTS of space. I did provide stats for those creatures/npcs in the dungeons beneath the City State because those are much more necessary.
NPC Wealth: a lot of NPCs do have magic items or strange items that they might not normally have, and a number actually have lower wealth than they should. This is part of the City State that wasn't changed. Not everything can, or should go by strict guidelines. Here is what we say in the book;
"NPC Wealth
A majority of shopkeepers and merchants have their wealth tied up in their shops, wares, and slaves. A few shopkeepers and NPCs might be extraordinarily wealthy through inheritance, good business practices, adventuring, or simple luck. Thus, the gear and coins carried by many of the NPCs do not follow the wealth guidelines presented in the DMG. The Judge can choose to add additional items to the NPCs if they desire."
NPC "flavor": much of the "flavor" for the NPC shokeepers and such is a result of the room description, a very brief description, or even just their name, here is an example;
Quote from City State of the Invincible Overlord:
"14. Boot & Strap
An aroma of new leather wafts through the doorway above which a large sign reads, “Elves & Halflings Axed on Sight in Shop.” The massive battle-axe over the counter has a well-worn haft and a very sharp blade, not surprising considering the temperamental reputation the owner, Karugy One-Eye, has gained over the years. Karugy maintains the store with the assistance of his ogre wife, Aliadar (female ogre). Karugy has at least 28 pairs of boots in stock with a 20% chance of fitting anyone that happens to enter, and can make boots to fit specific customers within 2-3 days. Karugy’s boots are sturdy, soft, and surprisingly elegant. His main clientele includes a number of bandits, thieves and ogres and he generally has 1d6 customers (Lvl 1d6) in his shop at any one time.
A secret compartment (Search DC 20) in the counter holds a strongbox containing 3 gp, 538 sp, and 234 cp. A trapdoor hidden behind the counter (Search DC 20) leads down to the tunnels beneath the city
A door in the rear of the shop leads into private quarters where a quick search turns up 4 kegs of wine, and a roast pig. More detailed searching turns up a key to the strongbox above hidden in the pocket of a cloak hanging on a peg near the door (Search DC 24) and a map to 3000 gp hidden in the Despot Ruins is tucked into the drawer of a decrepit night stand (Search DC 26).
Karugy One-Eye, male human Ftr3: CR 3; hp 30; AL CE; SL 5; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 14; Iron Will, Weapon Focus (greatsword); greatsword, 3 gp in a belt pouch."
Yes, the greatsword was supposed to be a greataxe, mistakes do slip in (yeah, we kick ourselves over every single one). Obviously, bolding and layout make this much easier to read in the actual book.
Basically, you have an evocative description without being overly detailed. Here we have a one-eyed man with such a disposition (and probably size) that he is married to an ogre. As a DM I can use that alone as an adventure seed, combine that with a hidden map, trapdoor to the tunnels and dungeons beneath the city, well, you can do a lot with this one room.
Here is another important quote from the book:
"...The Judge should feel free to tweak, modify, change, or eliminate any of the locations below in favor of their own campaign design. We deliberately provide just enough information to start you off and leave the rest to you and your PCs. The locations presented below are not meant to be set in stone but rather as tools to spark the imagination and make your job as Judge a little bit easier."
Well, I wrote this in pieces, I'll try to check back on this later if someone has other questions/comments.
Thanks,
Patrick
I am glad some people seem to like the City State so much. I did my very best to hold true to the original, while bringing things up to more "modern standards."
I'll try to answer a few of the questions/comments here.
This book is designed as a DM aid and is not really for first-time DMs or people completely new to RPGs. The details provided for the city are kept deliberately generic so that you can use the city with minor tweaks in virtually any setting. Between comments on our boards, a few emails, and some people I know personally, I know people that are using the revised CSIO (or the original) in Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Erde (Troll Lords), and the Wilderlands along with use in homebrew settings or other worlds.
The greater detail provided for the NPCs and rooms of the Dungeons beneath the City State have two reasons; first, these are more "adventure" based so more detail is provided for the DM, the DM can always change, alter, tweak, or eliminate whatever they see fit, second, the Wraith Overlord material was written by Scott Fulton with a different style and detail than that provided in the original CSIO by Bob Bledsaw and Bill Owen. I did my best to remain faithful to all of the original material I had.
Why not more detail/stats? Well, there wasn't really space. As it is, the book was longer than I was supposed to write (shhhhh). I tried to provide what I thought were "necessary" stats for shokeepers, etc. with plans of including a more generic NPC appendix for those times a fight might start. In the end, we provided some generic NPCs as a download created by Scott Greene and Clark Peterson. Stat blocks take up space, when you have hundreds and hundreds of NPCs, well, they take up LOTS of space. I did provide stats for those creatures/npcs in the dungeons beneath the City State because those are much more necessary.
NPC Wealth: a lot of NPCs do have magic items or strange items that they might not normally have, and a number actually have lower wealth than they should. This is part of the City State that wasn't changed. Not everything can, or should go by strict guidelines. Here is what we say in the book;
"NPC Wealth
A majority of shopkeepers and merchants have their wealth tied up in their shops, wares, and slaves. A few shopkeepers and NPCs might be extraordinarily wealthy through inheritance, good business practices, adventuring, or simple luck. Thus, the gear and coins carried by many of the NPCs do not follow the wealth guidelines presented in the DMG. The Judge can choose to add additional items to the NPCs if they desire."
NPC "flavor": much of the "flavor" for the NPC shokeepers and such is a result of the room description, a very brief description, or even just their name, here is an example;
Quote from City State of the Invincible Overlord:
"14. Boot & Strap
An aroma of new leather wafts through the doorway above which a large sign reads, “Elves & Halflings Axed on Sight in Shop.” The massive battle-axe over the counter has a well-worn haft and a very sharp blade, not surprising considering the temperamental reputation the owner, Karugy One-Eye, has gained over the years. Karugy maintains the store with the assistance of his ogre wife, Aliadar (female ogre). Karugy has at least 28 pairs of boots in stock with a 20% chance of fitting anyone that happens to enter, and can make boots to fit specific customers within 2-3 days. Karugy’s boots are sturdy, soft, and surprisingly elegant. His main clientele includes a number of bandits, thieves and ogres and he generally has 1d6 customers (Lvl 1d6) in his shop at any one time.
A secret compartment (Search DC 20) in the counter holds a strongbox containing 3 gp, 538 sp, and 234 cp. A trapdoor hidden behind the counter (Search DC 20) leads down to the tunnels beneath the city
A door in the rear of the shop leads into private quarters where a quick search turns up 4 kegs of wine, and a roast pig. More detailed searching turns up a key to the strongbox above hidden in the pocket of a cloak hanging on a peg near the door (Search DC 24) and a map to 3000 gp hidden in the Despot Ruins is tucked into the drawer of a decrepit night stand (Search DC 26).
Karugy One-Eye, male human Ftr3: CR 3; hp 30; AL CE; SL 5; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 14; Iron Will, Weapon Focus (greatsword); greatsword, 3 gp in a belt pouch."
Yes, the greatsword was supposed to be a greataxe, mistakes do slip in (yeah, we kick ourselves over every single one). Obviously, bolding and layout make this much easier to read in the actual book.
Basically, you have an evocative description without being overly detailed. Here we have a one-eyed man with such a disposition (and probably size) that he is married to an ogre. As a DM I can use that alone as an adventure seed, combine that with a hidden map, trapdoor to the tunnels and dungeons beneath the city, well, you can do a lot with this one room.
Here is another important quote from the book:
"...The Judge should feel free to tweak, modify, change, or eliminate any of the locations below in favor of their own campaign design. We deliberately provide just enough information to start you off and leave the rest to you and your PCs. The locations presented below are not meant to be set in stone but rather as tools to spark the imagination and make your job as Judge a little bit easier."
Well, I wrote this in pieces, I'll try to check back on this later if someone has other questions/comments.
Thanks,
Patrick
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