City-States

[Balesir]

Wasn't the opposite true? Irrigation, for instance, was much better. They had water powered mills (saw that on TV just last night, actually), they had mechanical reaping devices. All of which was pretty much forgotten by the Dark Ages...

But then I'm mostly speaking about Roman stuff.

The "loss of civilisation" in the so-called "Dark Ages" was really far less general than many assume. Powered mills (wind or water), for example, were never really "lost" - just disused in areas where the population went down. Look up "watermills" on Wikipedia and you'll find a nice table of the further development of the watermill in medieval Europe; the first industrial (as opposed to purely agricultural) mills are in France in the 700s.

The main "loss" from the fall of the Roman empire was the political and social organisation - which caused populations to move and thus technology needs to change. When population concentrates in well-watered lands (because they no longer have pressures to stay in dry lands, or the population has been reduced by war, disease or famine) they no longer need irrigation.

The changes also spurred other innovations, though. The development of the mouldboard plough, it has been speculated, had to do with the people working the land being free farmers rather than slaves owned by a villa. This allowed the use of wet, heavy soils (again, reducing the need for irrigation) in valley bottoms for cereal crops.

In short, the picture is far more complicated than "technology went into decline".
[MENTION=54364]DrunkonDuty[/MENTION]: for the kind of intrigue you talk about, I strongly recommend you get hold of a copy of the 2e D&D "Birthright" material if you can. That has some fabulous (simple) systems for handling a layered tapestry of overlords, merchants, religious orders and lawkeepers (including revolutionary "bandits"). Sounds like it might be just up your street.

 

[Gilladian]

I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread so far! It's great! I'm getting tons of ideas, and have a much better understanding of what kind of campaign I'm setting up.

I have decided so far that the hobbyt folk have a small city-state or large town that is a client state of the dwarves, who are lawful-neutral with some evil tendencies. Most hobbyts are perfectly happy as a protected client-state, but there are rebel groups, especially in other areas, that would love to "set their brethren free".

The elves have two city-states; one is elven through and through, on the rugged eastern coast where they dwell mostly in the trees and are fairly mobile. They harvest rare plants and spices, and their city is mainly a trade-point. They are fairly isolationist and they and the dwarves hate each other passionately.

The other elven city is divided between elves and humans. It houses the region's only large university, and is a very elite, scholarly community, but also has one of the three large ports; it is located on the western side of the island, in the north. Agriculture here is mostly rice farming at slightly above subsistence-level.

As I mentioned, the dwarven city is located on the central massif, west of the highest mountains, and is the largest city-state, with good warm-temperate farmland, lots of cattle-grazing and access to excellent stone and iron resources. They're militant, hate elves, and have some evil tendencies.

I'm thinking there are at least 3 more cities, all human-controlled. I would love some suggestions for their cultures and leadership...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, there's no super clear demarcation between late classical and early medieval. Water mills were in use from at least the 2nd Century BC, maybe somewhat earlier. Chances are in dark ages Europe there were less of them around, but it is hard to say for sure. The technology was certainly still around and became quite common in later centuries (by the end of the 1st millennium). Basic irrigation has of course been around forever, but it hasn't been used much in northern Europe, so it probably depends on the area. I don't know if it was less common in later centuries either, it would probably depend on the location and time period.

There were 3 MAJOR innovations though in farming tech that took place sometime during the dark ages. The horse collar was redesigned so that horses became practical for use in plowing, and horses are generally more flexible than oxen. Secondly the heavy mouldboard plow was invented. The classical scratch plow wasn't much good for plowing heavy soil or breaking new ground. Agriculture moved down from mostly lighter highland soils to richer lowland areas (which also have better water supplies). Thirdly the three field rotation system replaced the two field system in most areas, which was a significant advance.

There's no doubt that the fall of Rome was accompanied by falls in population. The question is more one of why. While it is 'common wisdom' that technology was lost at that time there's actually very little evidence for that. Portland cement definitely wasn't made during the middle ages, but I don't know of any other examples of technology that was actually lost. Governments in the dark ages were weak and decentralized, so there wasn't a lot of major public works going on, and a lot of disorder. It seems like however that when there was good government there was nothing stopping people from doing what they did in late antiquity really. Once things stabilized populations DID exceed those of antiquity by a good margin in Europe at least. One would assume the superior agricultural tech had something to do with that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hmmmmm. One could be a republic, maybe along the lines of one of the Italian trade republics (basically the average Joe has no say, but most decisions are made by a consensus of merchant and leading artisan families. Conditions can vary from fairly liberal with broad civil rights down to effectively despotism with a veneer of participation by a select few). You could have a a Sparta-like militaristic society, purely agricultural with a very heavy emphasis on warlike virtues. Sparta itself was of course also a slave-state. It was ruled by 2 kings and several officials (Ephors IIRC).

I guess another could be a theocratic type of city state, more modeled on something like the temple cult centered cities of the ancient near-east, or the Aztec model (similar in most general respects). There's likely a god-king of some sort and a cadre of priests who fill the role of a civil administration. State and temple/religion are one unified establishment. This is also rather similar to the model used in Dark Sun.

Another option would be something more sinister... A city ruled by the undead for instance. Maybe one that is a magocracy of some sort, complete with foolish plans to utilize "powers that are best left unknown" to further its ends. Or you could have a city ruled by a monster race. It could be a minotaur city, or a hobgoblin ruled city, etc. In those cases there could be an enslaved population of human/demi-human people. A city ruled by one or more dragons could be a good option too. I guess you could also go with some other non-human race. Dragonborn would be a good choice, though they're rather '4e' there are I guess 3e equivalents. There are many other choices for such a thing...

 

[Hand of Evil]

Hobgoblin City State, controlled by 3rd party (dragon / beholder / etc.). This group would be a military raiding city, that has a large population of slaves. Twice a year forces are sent out to bring back as many slaves as possible...slaves are food!

Undead City State - in a swamp or wasted land, only the dead and riches can be found there. No one goes too close to it.

 

[Razjah]

Gilladian, how accurate are you looking to make this?

Additionally how common do you want caster classes to be? I've run E6 with a PC class capable person being born roughly ever 1/100 people. Then those 1% are split evenly into all the classes in the campaign. Then I try to tier the levels so there are very few 5th and 6th level characters at all. This would restrict how much help magic is to farmers and the like.


If you want to have 5-7 city states, how different do you want them? I think if you decide how many times the island has been unsuccessfully invaded and conquered you can have a decent idea. The invades claimed land, and spread from there, but were unable to capture large amounts of territory. In order to protect themselves from orcs and the like on the island they created cities to protect. The city states may have towers around the border looking for roving bands of goblins, orcs, gnolls, or whatever the monster of choice is.

A few of the city-states could be under marshal law (retaining the military feel of those who founded the city-state). Anyone who enters must surrender weapons, spell casting inside the city limits is forbidden, and breaching this means loosing a hand.

A free city-state could be styled after the (romanticized) Italian Renaissance city-states. They can be centers of learning, art, trade, and possibly even be ruled by election. Even if this city-state and the above share many qualities this should differentiate them enough to the players.

How isolated are the demi-humans? I gave examples of dwarven and elven city-states before. Do you want them to be more integrated?

 

[Gilladian]

I would love to have many different waves of invasion. Maybe each city-state comes from a different wave.

Not too terribly accurate as far as portraying any particular era or culture. I want a DECENTLY balanced population size and something approaching a reasonable economy, but the veneer of sense is all I really ask.

The humanoid races can be fairly separate or well-blended. I see the dwarves as being at least 70% of the population of their city; the elves have two cities - the more scholarly wizardly city is perhaps 50/50 elf and other, while the wood-elf one is about 90% elvish. The hobbyt city is pretty much all hobbyts.

Other races I planned on making available to PCs would be grippli and MAYBE lizardmen - they're available in other regions of the campaign world, but don't HAVE to be here. I have no gnomes, and no dragonmen anywhere in my world.

Wizards are fairly common but probably not as high as 1% - maybe 1/2%? One in 500 would be fine with me. So if 2 million population total, that would be about 400 wizards. That seems scant, but not impossibly few. Half would probably be 1st level, and so on... 100 at 2nd, 50 at 3rd, 25 at 4th and another 25 divided between 5th and 6th.

The same sort of ratio might really hold true of all PC classes. Most everyone is going to be a commoner or maybe expert, of between 1st and 3rd level.

I'm not devoted to sticking to classical or dark ages culture, either. But I DO want to stay away from any sort of renaissance feel. No guns, no tech, no printing presses or automation of any sort.

No horses, either. Giant flightless birds for riding, oxen or similar type cattle for draft-animals.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Somehow that weird circus cart with the strange blue beast of burden that was on one of the really early covers of the Dragon (maybe around #12 , couldn't find an image of it) springs to mind, lol.

Edit: Found it, I was wrong, #11 , lol. With the Fritz Leiber piece too.

 

[Razjah]

The humanoid races can be fairly separate or well-blended. I see the dwarves as being at least 70% of the population of their city; the elves have two cities - the more scholarly wizardly city is perhaps 50/50 elf and other, while the wood-elf one is about 90% elvish.

Okay, I think the tree-dwelling city-state can work for wood elves. Scholarly wizard city.. that needs more. Alright: along the borders of the desert, near an oasis. The scholarly city-state is one of the eldest city-states, being chosen for easy sea access, but the rivers have been diverted by an ancient magical catastrophe leading to the desert being its current size. Now the wizards focus more on theory of magic (for safety). The city is built around the giant library (think epic library of alexandria). Information is the currency of the city, but coinage works. The library house millions of scrolls filled with information about spells, theories of magic, celestial beings, solar bodies, summoning theories, appropriate blast radius for the perfect fireball, etc. For bringing in new information or a small fee anyone can get access to the great library. But this is where wizards are concentrated. Destroying any library property earns the enmity of nearly all the wizards of the "world". This city-state could be a mage-ocracy with the higher mages ruling the lesser mages who rule the commoners. It would be styled similar to a feudal system, but with bookish scholars rather than knights. Advancing in rank (level up) gets access to more spells, more components, and better facilities (+2 bonus to research spells).

The hobbyt city is pretty much all hobbyts.

Oh just use the shire as a baseline. "Big" city-state built into the hills for protection. They use lots of the flightless birds (chocobos?) for farming and the like. I really don't have much for your hobbyts who I assume are your world's halflings.

Other races I planned on making available to PCs would be grippli and MAYBE lizardmen - they're available in other regions of the campaign world, but don't HAVE to be here. I have no gnomes, and no dragonmen anywhere in my world.

Grippli could live in a swamp. Sure, they're supposed to be treefrogs (I had to use wiki, never remember hearing of these guys before), but swamps work well enough for fantasy. Now set it up like Lake Town from The Hobbit, but more hillbilly. So the city-state is floating in the swamp regions where two great rivers come together and form a great delta. The swamp has a lot of different fish species to farm and the ease of access to water makes the city a decent port, the "waterfront" is near the deep waters where larger ships can get to. This city-state would be utilitarian in build, but sprawling and haphazard in design. What I mean is that the buildings, rope bridges, and walkways are all efficient and well designed. The city's layout is haphazard and was formed organically as the city expanded to deal with a growing population. The government could be a council, how about a triumvirate? The three fish farmers each year with the most caught form the triumvirate.

Wizards are fairly common but probably not as high as 1% - maybe 1/2%? One in 500 would be fine with me. So if 2 million population total, that would be about 400 wizards. That seems scant, but not impossibly few. Half would probably be 1st level, and so on... 100 at 2nd, 50 at 3rd, 25 at 4th and another 25 divided between 5th and 6th.

Then I don't expect the population to be too high. There isn't enough magic to go around to help all the people. Instead wizards are mighty and powerful. Perhaps the Great Library is very well maintained and protected, but most people get along without magic and some city-states can outfit their higher-ups in the army/militia/town guard/etc with potions.

No horses, either. Giant flightless birds for riding, oxen or similar type cattle for draft-animals.

Okay, you have chocobos. How about using Moas for something. They were large flightless birds. Something like the North Island Giant Moa could be used for a draft animal in this. Then you don't need any cattle. Add in giant kiwis to serve as your donkey/mule substitute and you are ready to go with animals.

 

[Mark CMG]

I'm thinking there are at least 3 more cities, all human-controlled. I would love some suggestions for their cultures and leadership...

The nice thing about a Magocracy or religious cult is that they can be fairly self-contained and, provided others shun them locally and present no outside interference, they can exist in an isolated manner. One might include another city-state that exists as a colony of mercenaries, keeping to themselves except when someone hires out some of their numbers for a specific mission of warfare.