City/Town Encounters -- AD&D1 DMG

I do not miss the classes and most of the gameplay from 1E, but I do miss the feel a lot. The way the dice could reward you or totally doom you depending on what numbers came up. Remember the chance for a dragon to be asleep? 30% chance that you could have a good chance of beating the dragon, and a 70% chance he would lay he hurting on you from round one. Lots of fun.

This encounter table reminds me of it. Laborer, no problem, 5 8th-10th level rakes? We are doomed!!!!!
 

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Sure, I can sit and come up with an interested encounter with an otherwise mundane person. But having to come up with one every 3 turns, randomly by roll of the dice? Are we playing a game or is this an exercise for the DM's off-the-top-of-his-head creativity?
Both (with the creativity part not being limited to the DM). And you needn't be rolling every 3 turns. The frequency of random encounters isn't set in stone, it's set as appropriate to the situation and the needs of the game. You roll differently in the wilderness, for example. Different dungeons (or even areas within a dungeon) might have different random encounter frequency. The same principle applies to cities: fit the frequency to the needs of the situation.

An encounter needn't be anything elaborate, only the opportunity for interaction. An encounter with a "goodwife" may be nothing more than bumping into or being greeted by the woman ("Good day!") If the PCs simply nod and move on, that's the end of it. If they choose to interact, that's up to them. PCs surprise you, and sometimes the questions they ask or the actions they take -- even with "mundane people" -- can be springboards for creativity and fun. I know that I've often taken an idea suggested by a PC's questions and run with it. "Making up stuff" is one of the fun parts of the game.

Random encounter tables are not a straightjacket or a cast-in-stone decree of what must be, they're a springboard for creativity. A tool. You can use them for on-the-fly encounters. You can roll up several in advance, creating mini-situations to spring when appropriate. You can discard rolls you don't feel appropriate, or can't think of how to incorporate.

And there's something in this list that just cracks me up about some things in AD&D1: so much is random chance -- even the odds for a random chance are determined randomly. "A beggar has a slight chance (1% to 8%) of knowing information..." Can't just say "A beggar has a slight chance (5%) of knowing information..."? (Not to mention "knowing information" is pretty darn vague.)
If it did, I suspect you'd be chuckling over how AD&D1 is so precise with such detail, and how every beggar in the city has exactly a 5% chance of knowing something of interest to the PCs. :hmm:

("Knowing information" is vague because that suits the needs of the DM. It can be adjusted to fit the situation.)
 
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Why handle city encounters like this? The DMG has pages of random "dungeon dressing" to add variety to boring, repetitive dungeon rooms (just a few pages after this section), but for the city encounters (what seems to me would be the main place for variety and distinction), EGG says to make them vague and similar. What was the thinking there?
Missed this earlier.

I suspect he means that you shouldn't give away the exact nature of the encounter right away. Is that muscled guy just some laborer, or the leader of a press gang? He's not saying make the encounters boring and the same all the time. He saying "don't show your cards right away." (Again, a guideline, not a cast-in-stone-approach-you-must-not-waver-from.)
 

Random encounter tables are not a straightjacket or a cast-in-stone decree of what must, they're a springboard for creativity. A tool. You can use them for on-the-fly encounters. You can roll up several in advance, creating mini-situations to spring when appropriate. You can discard rolls you don't feel appropriate, or can't think of how to incorporate.

Although brief, the discussion on the DM's use (or not) of random die results in the DMG (I believe it is located in the random encounters section, in fact) is one of my favorite sections of the book. EGG really shines there and reminds us why he was in fact The Master.
 


If it did, I suspect you'd be chuckling over how AD&D1 is so precise with such detail, and how every beggar in the city has exactly a 5% chance of knowing something of interest to the PCs.
That makes no sense. I suspect your "he must be bashing my favorite edition" meter is tuned too sensitive.

Come on. The write up gives a random range for the random chance of something. Seriously. If that's not wonky, and it is good design, why aren't all other random odds determined by a random range -- black dragons are caught asleep 10% to 30% of the time; orcs are found in their lair 21% to 40% of the time; a lich has a 50% to 75% chance of having treasure from Treasure Type A (which is itself a random table).

Rolling randomly for something is one thing, but rolling randomly for the odds for rolling randomly is going a bit silly far. If you think this isn't weird, state why. Don't imply I'm intellectually dishonest.


Bullgrit
 

That makes no sense. I suspect your "he must be bashing my favorite edition" meter is tuned too sensitive.

Come on. The write up gives a random range for the random chance of something. Seriously. If that's not wonky, and it is good design, why aren't all other random odds determined by a random range -- black dragons are caught asleep 10% to 30% of the time; orcs are found in their lair 21% to 40% of the time; a lich has a 50% to 75% chance of having treasure from Treasure Type A (which is itself a random table).

Rolling randomly for something is one thing, but rolling randomly for the odds for rolling randomly is going a bit silly far. If you think this isn't weird, state why. Don't imply I'm intellectually dishonest.


Bullgrit

It is a rather interesting question. Rather than look at it and say "makes no sense" maybe we can try and parcel out a meaning for the dual randomness of the situation.

There's X chance you'll encounter a beggar. That beggar has Y chance of knowing something useful to the party. X is a static probability -- the pupulation of beggars to not-beggars is a known quantity. Y is a floating probability -- perhaps all beggars have an equal chance of knowing useful information, but any particular beggar's useful information may or may not relate to anything the PCs care about. Therefore, the 1d8 roll to set the % is used to give a rough approximation of how the beggar's knowledge does or does not relate to the PCs interests, and then a check is made to determine if that beggar does in fact know anything.
 

That makes no sense. I suspect your "he must be bashing my favorite edition" meter is tuned too sensitive.
Nah; Original D&D is my favorite edition. :)

I'm perfectly willing to bash on AD&D (even 1e); there are several things about it I don't like (the bonus/numbers inflation, non-weapon proficiencies, the UA classes, the DMG unarmed combat rules, to name a few). I just don't see anything worth 'bashing' in what you've raised, here. Actually, I didn't really think you were 'bashing' -- I was just scratching my head over what the confusion or amusement was over. To me, the 1-8% range is just a non-issue.

If that's not wonky, and it is good design, why aren't all other random odds determined by a random range...
I do think it's wonky, just in a good way. I think Gary wrote it that way because he liked that approach to beggars and information. I think it's cool that it gives some insight into his thinking, there. I don't feel bound by it. I'd probably be just as happy with a flat 5%, and wouldn't feel bound by it either. I use the given number(s) as a guide.

Rolling randomly for something is one thing, but rolling randomly for the odds for rolling randomly is going a bit silly far. If you think this isn't weird, state why. Don't imply I'm intellectually dishonest.
It's not that I think you're intellectually dishonest, it's that I think your post (especially when considered alongside others you're made) suggests a wide gulf between our approaches to the game. You seem to find amusement or confusion or inconsistency where I do not. As I said, I see that 1-8% range as a non-issue that isn't worth a bash or a chuckle, which leaves me scratching my head and wondering what else would cause similar amusement. That's all I meant.
 
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I mean, you're walking through the city streets -- I presume there's other people all over the place -- and then there's an "encounter" with a goodwife (or is she a harlot?).

"Gud day, me Lairds, wuld you like to buy somethin'? I've got some sweet goodies in me basket! Fresh and hot! Surely strong men such as yurselves have an appetite?"

Sure, I can sit and come up with an interested encounter with an otherwise mundane person. But having to come up with one every 3 turns, randomly by roll of the dice? Are we playing a game or is this an exercise for the DM's off-the-top-of-his-head creativity?

Often there is very little difference. I often find random tables extremely useful for jump starting the fun when my creativity is flagging.

Half an hour later there's an encounter with a laborer (what, do they cat call at the magic-user?).

Sure. Or the Sorceress (high charisma). Why not?

"Oh your ladyship, I got a wand for you."
"Let's make some magic together!"
"Come on over and I'll show you my fireballs"
Crawling on knees like a begger, "Dominate me, Madam. Dominate me."
"Show us your orbs!"

"Half an hour later there's an encounter with bandits (in the day they just look at you)."

And when these bandits ambush you outside of town, they'll look familiar.

Interesting encounters with normally mundane people (whom the PCs see all over the place, all day long in the city) shouldn't be controlled by random rolls many times a day.

And if you have a plan, they probably won't be. But random rolls give a setting some organicness and vibrance that I find is very hard to pull off otherwise.

Did/does anyone actually use this random chart for city encounters?

That one? No, it tends to generate too many high level NPC's. Something like that, sure.

What did/do you do when you roll an encounter for a pilgrim or a tradesman?

Any number of things, depending on my mood. The pilgrims could be from an exotic cult. The pilgrims could be celebrants of the same diety as the party cleric. The tradesman could be offering a good or service interesting to the party. The tradesman could be a lawyer serving some notice to the PC's (if they've recently made an enemy in the city). The tradesman could be part of a group of mummers from the same guild, celebrating the guilds holy day with a parade and he gives the PC's some small token (a copper coin, a string of beads). Maybe the tradesman is being harried by a creditors, who've hired toughs from the theives guild to harass him, and he stumbles into the PC's in his distracted state - is he a tradesman or a pick pocket? If the PC's follow this suspicious looking, fearful, distracted fellow, perhaps they become involved?

One of the things you are striving for here is making a world that is organic enough that whenever something happens, the PC's don't immediately interpret it as the DM out to get them. One thing that you can run into is if every event in your campaign is a major plot point and part of some vast conspiracy, that the players every suspicion is justifiable. I've ran into group where if the PC's were given a copper coin by a strange man on the street, they'd immediately throw it down and cast detect magic/evil on it - and possibly tackle the person on the assumption he was a member of an evil cult.

How did/do you make this random encounter stand out from every mundane person on the street, such that the PCs actually interact with them? And then do it again for the druid or gentleman encounter 30 minutes later.

It doesn't always have to necessitate a long interaction. It isn't always possible. And eventually you might generate so many thread ends that you don't feel the need for random encounters, because you've got too many plot points and loose threads to tie up as it is.

And there's something in this list that just cracks me up about some things in AD&D1: so much is random chance -- even the odds for a random chance are determined randomly. "A beggar has a slight chance (1% to 8%) of knowing information..." Can't just say "A beggar has a slight chance (5%) of knowing information..."? (Not to mention "knowing information" is pretty darn vague.)

The way I would interpret that is that some beggars are just drunks or are not really there mentally, and so rarely no anything helpful. And, some beggars have their ear to the street and really know things. If the beggar knows something, then there is a good chance he might know something in the future. The PC's can form a relationship with the helpful beggar who knows something useful 8% of the time, and over time when they want to 'gather information' you don't roll randomly, you RP them interacting with Giotto the Lame who is so frequently useful as well as other contacts that they've made in the city. These are NPC's we are spontaneously creating.
 


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