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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CajunAzn" data-source="post: 5073181" data-attributes="member: 87718">After reading a bzillion threads on this, I have yet to get a definitive answer on this question. "How do you get superior cover for hiding in combat?" Let's first quote the relevant rules:   During a stealth check, the opponent is the one trying to determine if you have cover. Therefore the opponent picks one of its corners and draws imaginary lines to all 4 of your corners. If 3+ lines pass through an obstacle or one of its enemies (i.e. your ally), you have Superior Cover, and therefore can attempt a Steath check. This can happen in combat if you position yourself correctly. For example, lets say Elly the Ranger is trying to hide from a goblin, behind 2 of her fighter allies: <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/597b5366051013" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails9.imagebam.com/6606/597b5366051013.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> (blue square is the goblin, green square is Elly, red lines are blocked, green lines are unblocked) <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/4a68ad66051017" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails19.imagebam.com/6606/4a68ad66051017.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/bc87ec66051021" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails25.imagebam.com/6606/bc87ec66051021.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> It's pretty obvious that no matter what corner the goblin picks, all 4 lines will intersect with one its enemies (i.e. Elly's fighter allies). Therefore Elly has superior cover and can attempt a hide. Now if we remove one of the fighters, then Elly is in trouble: <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/73a21866051023" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails27.imagebam.com/6606/73a21866051023.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/d7542d66051024" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails25.imagebam.com/6606/d7542d66051024.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> There are only 1-2 blocked lines in this case, and Elly only gets Standard Cover and can't hide. But since, the requirement is only 3+ blocked lines, Elly can stick right behind her fighter ally and get back her Superior Cover. <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/92678d66051025" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails20.imagebam.com/6606/92678d66051025.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/a8578566051027" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails27.imagebam.com/6606/a8578566051027.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> The rest of this thread centers around what happens after Elly succeeds the stealth check. It was concluded that the above situations would only allow Elly to make a stealth check, but in order to stay hidden, she must meet the requirement:   Therefore, when Elly attempts her hide check, the green square which she is standing on must have some concealment. Or, she must be under the effect of a power that grants her concealment. If she doesn’t have concealment, she can still remain hidden if we replace one of the fighters with a statue. (Note: for this example, the statues will be treated as a pillar rather than a wall. This means that the statue corners do not block lines.) <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/89734d66730794" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails28.imagebam.com/6674/89734d66730794.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/4653f866730801" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails10.imagebam.com/6674/4653f866730801.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> As you can see, the statue in each case blocks at least one line. Therefore, Elly gets cover from it and can remain hidden. In the following case with only the statue, Elly can use the statue to both become and remain hidden. <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/99143066730810" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails10.imagebam.com/6674/99143066730810.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/bc883c66730813" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails27.imagebam.com/6674/bc883c66730813.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> Those cases, with the statue replacing an ally, should have been fairly obvious. However, the interesting cases happens when you put the statue beside Elly. <a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/ba5a6266733517" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails23.imagebam.com/6674/ba5a6266733517.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/be86a366737630" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails10.imagebam.com/6674/be86a366737630.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/790fdf66733531" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails24.imagebam.com/6674/790fdf66733531.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a><a href="http://www.imagebam.com/image/981cdb66733540" target="_blank"><img src="http://thumbnails22.imagebam.com/6674/981cdb66733540.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></a> As you can see, the presence of a statue, will always block at least one line, providing cover for Elly to remain hidden. So for DMs and players that want a clear WAR application of stealth and allies: You can use your allies as superior cover to become hidden, but you simultaneously need concealment or a non-ally source of cover to stay hidden. (Note: this works for the monsters as well.) === Comments on the RAI: I believe it makes sense that allies can be used as a momentary source of cover for a stealthy character slip into a shadow or behind an obstacle. However, when hidden, that stealthy character can`t simply walk from ally to ally, treating them like obstacles for cover. Hence the restriction on ally-cover while hidden.  I also think this mechanic adds tactical depth, provides stealthy characters many more opportunies to actually use stealth in combat, and encourages party teamwork and cooperation. All of this, I believe makes for a more positive game experience. But obviously, this is only my opinion. But at least, according to the RAW, this is how the stealth mechanic works. You must decide if that is what you want at your table. Good gaming, everyone!</blockquote>

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