Clarification on Superior Cover

[CajunAzn]

After reading a bzillion threads on this, I have yet to get a definitive answer on this question.

"How do you get superior cover for hiding in combat?"

Let's first quote the relevant rules:

PH2(p222): "You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight."

PH(p280): "Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover."

During a stealth check, the opponent is the one trying to determine if you have cover. Therefore the opponent picks one of its corners and draws imaginary lines to all 4 of your corners. If 3+ lines pass through an obstacle or one of its enemies (i.e. your ally), you have Superior Cover, and therefore can attempt a Steath check.

This can happen in combat if you position yourself correctly. For example, lets say Elly the Ranger is trying to hide from a goblin, behind 2 of her fighter allies:



(blue square is the goblin, green square is Elly, red lines are blocked, green lines are unblocked)




It's pretty obvious that no matter what corner the goblin picks, all 4 lines will intersect with one its enemies (i.e. Elly's fighter allies). Therefore Elly has superior cover and can attempt a hide.

Now if we remove one of the fighters, then Elly is in trouble:




There are only 1-2 blocked lines in this case, and Elly only gets Standard Cover and can't hide.

But since, the requirement is only 3+ blocked lines, Elly can stick right behind her fighter ally and get back her Superior Cover.




The rest of this thread centers around what happens after Elly succeeds the stealth check. It was concluded that the above situations would only allow Elly to make a stealth check, but in order to stay hidden, she must meet the requirement:

PH2(p222): "Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden."

Therefore, when Elly attempts her hide check, the green square which she is standing on must have some concealment. Or, she must be under the effect of a power that grants her concealment.

If she doesn’t have concealment, she can still remain hidden if we replace one of the fighters with a statue. (Note: for this example, the statues will be treated as a pillar rather than a wall. This means that the statue corners do not block lines.)




As you can see, the statue in each case blocks at least one line. Therefore, Elly gets cover from it and can remain hidden.

In the following case with only the statue, Elly can use the statue to both become and remain hidden.




Those cases, with the statue replacing an ally, should have been fairly obvious. However, the interesting cases happens when you put the statue beside Elly.






As you can see, the presence of a statue, will always block at least one line, providing cover for Elly to remain hidden.

So for DMs and players that want a clear WAR application of stealth and allies:

You can use your allies as superior cover to become hidden, but you simultaneously need concealment or a non-ally source of cover to stay hidden.

(Note: this works for the monsters as well.)

===

Comments on the RAI:

I believe it makes sense that allies can be used as a momentary source of cover for a stealthy character slip into a shadow or behind an obstacle. However, when hidden, that stealthy character can`t simply walk from ally to ally, treating them like obstacles for cover. Hence the restriction on ally-cover while hidden.

I also think this mechanic adds tactical depth, provides stealthy characters many more opportunies to actually use stealth in combat, and encourages party teamwork and cooperation. All of this, I believe makes for a more positive game experience.

But obviously, this is only my opinion. But at least, according to the RAW, this is how the stealth mechanic works. You must decide if that is what you want at your table.

Good gaming, everyone!

 

[Gunpowder]

Except it says You cant hide behind allies under the heading for Remaining Hidden.

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

And if you cant use it to remain hidden I doubt you can use it to gain hidden status because you need total cover or concealment because it is physically impossible to see you.

 

[CajunAzn]

Thanks for pointing that out, but there's a subtle reason why I think your reasoning is flawed.

The paragraph you quoted is trying to highlight the circumstances that you can stay undectable to your enemy without rolling another stealth check.

That last line "You can't use another creature as cover to remain hidden" is saying that simply being covered another creature is not enough to remain invisible passively (even if you've only moved 2 squares, kept silent, etc.) - you still must make another Stealth check.

This makes sense, because hiding behind an ally isn't as easy as hiding in a shadowy area. If you think about really trying to hide behind someone, you need dexterity...you need to match your allies movement, twist and turn your body to always present the least amount of visible area.

This rule is to ensure that stealthy characters who are using their allies as cover, always need to be on their toes (ie. make stealth checks while positioning themselves in superior cover) to remain hidden.

In that, this mechanic is actually very nice, because it makes it possible for you to coordinate with your allies to start hiding and remain hidden, just alot harder than using enviromental advantages.

So the restriction that "You can't you another creature as cover" for remaining hidden was intentionally left out of the restrictions for becoming hidden, so that it becomes something the character/party must maintain with ongoing stealth checks and positioning.

This wasn't an design oversight, but a very clever design mechanic because it rewards good teamwork and tactical thinking as a good RPG should.

 

[Gunpowder]

Well there is also the Assassin power shade form.
Which specially allows you to use the cover and concealment of allies to become and remain hidden. It also allows you to use any sort of cover and concealment to become and remain hidden as well.

But I don't see a problem with your poistion, I am just throwing out counter examples

 

[CajunAzn]

Another good point (I really appreciate your counter examples, btw).

Of course, the Shadeform power allows you much more flexibility in using stealth than in the normal case.

Looking at the rules for stealth, you'll quickly see why this is the case:

Stealth: At the end of a move action.

...You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.

Keep Out of Sight: ...You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

...Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is
–10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.

Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

Normally, if a hidden character (who only has allies for cover) starts his turn with a move action, he cannot hide again at the end of that move. This is because he lost invisibility at the start of his turn (for being in an uncovered square) and "you can’t become hidden again as part of that same action" that you lost invisibility on.

So what does he do? He has to use his standard action to move again! And he has to end that move on a square with superior cover from allies. Whereupon, he must make another stealth check. If he moves 3+ squares with the second move, he also takes a large penalty to that hide check.

These are very limiting restrictions, and the character has to coordinate very carefully with his group in order to sneak up to an enemy on an open battlefield. And this as it should be, because hiding on an open battlefield is difficult, but very possible with a well coordinated group.

However, with Shade Form:

Dragon379: You can make stealth checks to become hidden if you have any cover or concealment, and you can use cover granted by your allies both to become hidden and to stay hidden.

On an open battlefield, the assassin only needs to get standard cover (1-2 blocked lines) from his allies to start his invisibility and can move to any square with standard cover to stay invisible (or attempt to stay invisible if he moves 3+ sqaures).

Unlike the normal character, the assassin can move at the start without losing his invisibilty as long as his starting square and each square he moves on has just one line of cover. Therefore the assassin can use his second action to attack, with the benefits of invisibility, whereas the normal character would have lost the benefits of invisiblity by the second action.

This is a huge difference, and well worth choosing an the Assassin class if a player likes stealth.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, I suppose you could -technically- use another creature to make a Stealth check.

And then after that, you no longer count as hidden because creatures don't count for that purpose.

So... technically, you could make the Stealth check, but good luck staying Stealthed longer than the action you took to stealth in the first place.

Assassins with Shade form, obviously, do not apply here.

 

[CajunAzn]

So I guess your argument is that instantly after you succeeded your stealth check you would lose your invisibility. Another good point, but I think you aren't taking into account the effect of the stealth check itself.

As I alluded to earlier, the stealth check (in this situation) represents your adroitness in sychnronizing your body position and movement with your ally in such a way that the enemy never gets a clear look at you from that angle. So your invisibility wouldn't just "instantly vanish" unless your ally or the enemy shifts position.

Even if you were hiding behind a stone wall, this would still be the case. If the wall dissapears, you become visible. If the enemy goes around the wall, you become visible. However, if all conditions remain the same (and the enemy doesn't make an active perception check) it is logical that your stealth check result still applies.

However when your turn comes again, the rules clearly state your restrictions: "You can't use a creatures as cover to remain hidden". In other words, you must be continually on the move, positioning yourself cleverly (ie. gaining superior cover) and using your balance/flexibility to remain silent and assume a hidden posture (ie. making stealth checks).

 

[DracoSuave]

So I guess your argument is that instantly after you succeeded your stealth check you would lose your invisibility. Another good point, but I think you aren't taking into account the effect of the stealth check itself.

As I alluded to earlier, the stealth check (in this situation) represents your adroitness in sychnronizing your body position and movement with your ally in such a way that the enemy never gets a clear look at you from that angle. So your invisibility wouldn't just "instantly vanish" unless your ally or the enemy shifts position.

One.

Stealth does not give you invisibility, nor vice versa.

two.

The stealth check allows you to -enter- the hidden status, but it does not allow you to -maintain- hidden status.

Three.

This is also realistic. Allies and enemies don't -actually- stop moving. And you need not only to synchronise your movements to your ally, but also the enemy's vision. Which is something you can't exactly practice so easily.

This would therefore be the purview of a power, not of the base skill.

Even if you were hiding behind a stone wall, this would still be the case. If the wall dissapears, you become visible. If the enemy goes around the wall, you become visible. However, if all conditions remain the same (and the enemy doesn't make an active perception check) it is logical that your stealth check result still applies.

The difference between a stone wall and a combatant (other than the size of each object) is that the combatant is constantly moving. The combat system is not based on the concept of people standing there dully while enemies hit them with sticks. The only kind of combatant that doesn't maneuver is one that is dead.

However when your turn comes again, the rules clearly state your restrictions: "You can't use a creatures as cover to remain hidden". In other words, you must be continually on the move, positioning yourself cleverly (ie. gaining superior cover) and using your balance/flexibility to remain silent and assume a hidden posture (ie. making stealth checks).

Here's the problem with this:

Hidden status doesn't last until the end of your turn. It is not turn based at all. So, you don't wait till your next turn to figure stuff out. You, at every point of every action, determine if you've still got sufficient legal cover to continue Stealth. The same rule applies at your next turn as does apply during THIS turn. Which, by the way, does not end with the stealth check anyways.

So, you make the stealth check, and then immediately fail the necessary requirements for steath -immediately-. This means you'd become unhidden at the end of that specific action. Not your next turn.

Regardless, your argument somehow suggests that you're able to remain hidden until your next turn. But the rule says you cannot, under those circumstances, remain hidden at all. For any length of time.

 

[CajunAzn]

Again a very good counter argument. Before I address your main argument, first me make a clarification:

One.

Stealth does not give you invisibility, nor vice versa.

In the rules, stealth literally grants you invisibility to the enemies your are hiding from.

PHB2(p222): Stealth...Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.

Now to your second point which deals with allies and enemies being non-static:

This is also realistic. Allies and enemies don't -actually- stop moving. And you need not only to synchronise your movements to your ally, but also the enemy's vision. Which is something you can't exactly practice so easily.

This would therefore be the purview of a power, not of the base skill.

The difference between a stone wall and a combatant (other than the size of each object) is that the combatant is constantly moving. The combat system is not based on the concept of people standing there dully while enemies hit them with sticks. The only kind of combatant that doesn't maneuver is one that is dead.

I agree with you, hence why you must make the stealth checks every turn - it's harder to use dynamic cover (i.e. your ally) for stealth than just remain in darkness or behind a wall. As I said before, the developers specifically put in the phrase "You cannot use creatures as cover to remain hidden" so that you couldn't just stand their behind an ally and enjoy the benefits of stealth. You have to move and be dynamic.

I've talked about all this in my response before, so I have a feeling you're real beef is in your last point:

Here's the problem with this:

Hidden status doesn't last until the end of your turn. It is not turn based at all. So, you don't wait till your next turn to figure stuff out. You, at every point of every action, determine if you've still got sufficient legal cover to continue Stealth. The same rule applies at your next turn as does apply during THIS turn. Which, by the way, does not end with the stealth check anyways.

So, you make the stealth check, and then immediately fail the necessary requirements for steath -immediately-. This means you'd become unhidden at the end of that specific action. Not your next turn.

Regardless, your argument somehow suggests that you're able to remain hidden until your next turn. But the rule says you cannot, under those circumstances, remain hidden at all. For any length of time.

It should be clear from my examples previous, that I don't think being hidden stays automatically stays until the next turn. If whatever situation allows you to be hidden (ie. an obstruction or opposing creatures) dissappears or changes position, then you automatically lose your hidden status.

Your argument rests solely on the interpretation of the quote:

"You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden."

directly implying that your ally counts for cover in one moment (when you are making your check), and the split second after, it doesn't count for cover.

Now it just comes down what is a plausible/fair interpretation of the rules. Does this split second alteration seem plausible or fair to you?

The stealth check was based on careful alignment of positions and lines of sight. If these positions/aligments do not change, why should the result of the stealth check change?

My answer is: it shouldn't (at least not plausibly or fairly to the player).

-----

That is my main argument, but you could also make these other heuristic arguments against your interpretation:

1) Do you think the designers intended for you to be able to make a useless stealth roll?

2) The sections under "Remaining Hidden" and "Not Remaining Hidden" were obviously designed to guide players on what to do when stealthed, not create a sudden and unbelievable reversal of the player's hidden status he just earned.

3) Do you think the designers were careful enough to remember to put a condition for remaining in stealth, but not remember the same condition for starting stealth? This would be especially strange since this was a specific errata designed to clear up how stealth worked.

Lastly, I just have to say, the stealth mechanic I have described is positive for the game. It encourages teamwork and strategy. It is very difficult to remain continually stealthed, unless a player is always watching the battlefield and noting opportunities. Isn't this what a rogue/ranger/assasin/etc. should do?

I knew sooner or later these points would come up, which is why I said in my OP that an official response from the game developers would be greatly appreciated. I for one, give the developers more credit than just assuming they would create a very arbitrary, "oh, but right after, you lose the stealth" rule.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, its fine to give the developers credit for things, but I can point out dozens, perhaps 100's of instances like this where the developers didn't think everything through. In fact 4e rules are notoriously sloppy compared to almost any wargame you would care to mention. So I would give near zero credence to this line of logic.

Lets suppose we take your logic at face value. Now, look at Fleeting Ghost. Are you going to assert that it allows a rogue to stand in plain sight and be hidden until the start of his next turn? The same logic which works for allies would have to apply here too, the character gets a stealth check and 'no condition has changed' from that point onwards. We KNOW for a fact that FG doesn't work this way since there are higher level rogue utilities that actually DO work this way and they wouldn't exist if FG already did that.

Thus I (and I suspect practically everyone that has spent a good bit of time studying stealth in 4e) would say that you DO have to continually test your hidden status. If at any point you don't meet the requirements to remain hidden, you stop being hidden. This means for a character using the baseline stealth skill by itself allies will never give you a meaningful ability to hide. Coupled with certain feats or rogue utilities allies CAN provide an opportunity to initiate a hidden status that will last or do certain other things. Chameleon might work for this in some situations (it would have to involve movement on another creature's turn technically).

Furthermore I'm not even convinced that allies can give you total cover. An ally is not blocking terrain or covering terrain. The rule is that allies give cover, but its a special rule and says nothing about TOTAL cover. My feeling is that you get only a limited amount of cover from allies. Remember, an ally is roughly the same size as you are and certainly doesn't even come close to filling its space. Its very similar to the situation of an obscured square like one containing a bush. No number of bushes will cause the granted concealment to become total concealment. (admittedly the DM may well feel justified in making exceptions for extreme cases and he could make a similar exception if you had MANY allies between you and the enemy).

In other words you can get cover from allies and its a good idea to work to maintain that, which does require some tactics, but I don't think you can get total cover and I REALLY don't think you can remain hidden at all behind allies.