Stormonu
NeoGrognard
Which of the 20 versions?
D&D (2024) Creating good stealth rules for 2024 5e
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Indeed, stop trying to make a PC somehow invisible in the middle of a fight!It would just be easier to ban Stealth at this point.
Find a new feature name like : feint or elusive.
Allow to make sneak attack when it succeed, but forget the invisible part.
ezo
Hero
Well, before I call it a night, here is my first draft to help out @Stalker0:
You have the Invisible condition against any enemy with a Passive Perception score lower than your total.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, you make an attack roll, you cast a spell with a Verbal component, you move more than half your Speed, you are in an enemy's ling of sight while you are not Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quaters Cover or Total Cover, or an enemy uses the Search action to roll a Wisdom (Perception) check against a DC equal to the total for your check.
I'm not thrilled about all the ways the condition can end, but I wanted to cover my bases. Some of it might be needlessly repetitive.
People can pick it apart and I'll check back in the morning.
Hide [Draft #1]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check and make note of the total. If you are in any enemy’s line of sight, you must be Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.You have the Invisible condition against any enemy with a Passive Perception score lower than your total.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, you make an attack roll, you cast a spell with a Verbal component, you move more than half your Speed, you are in an enemy's ling of sight while you are not Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quaters Cover or Total Cover, or an enemy uses the Search action to roll a Wisdom (Perception) check against a DC equal to the total for your check.
I'm not thrilled about all the ways the condition can end, but I wanted to cover my bases. Some of it might be needlessly repetitive.
People can pick it apart and I'll check back in the morning.
If you go the same direction and are staggered, you will never know if someone ganked your partner (assuming they hid the body).
UngeheuerLich
Legend
I actually like the static DC to be invisible. I use passive perception to notice strange sounds.
So while you don't automatically see something, you get a hint to actually search actively.
This is how I used passive investigation in 5.14. (Was important for me, with a player taking the observant feat).
When the PCs were in a house, I mentioned, that the interior was feeling smaller than the outside looked. So they could actively search for hidden rooms.
leozg
DM
As I remember, it was fixed just once or twice, but anyway, it is better (imo) than the current 5e version, which by the way should've learned from previous mistakes (but didn't!).
Swarmkeeper
Hero
It's kinda... hidden... on page 29 of the 2024 DMG:
Calculated DCs
...
Another way to handle similar situations is to have one creature's ability check set the DC for another creature's check. That's how hiding works, for example: a hiding creature's total Dexterity (Stealth) check sets the DC for Wisdom (Perception) checks made to find the hidden creature.
Kinematics
Hero
The Stealth system in 2024 has come up again recently. I was considering how to build a rule set for it that satisfies the desired requirements without getting overly complicated, and fits easily in the 2024 rules. Then I found this thread, so I'll piggyback here.
Building a Stealth System
Preliminary thoughts:
A whole lot of defining has to take place before we even get to the mechanics aspect. I'm not going to write out my thoughts, as that feels like it gets excessive. Particular issues may arise that get back to this, though, in which case I'll get more detailed.
So, the following can be considered elements of narrative "stealth", though not necessarily all at the same time:
And what you can do with stealth:
Some aspects of Stealth blend in with other systems. For example, posing at a waiter at a restaurant may be more of a Disguise + Performance effort than being "hidden", though it can give the same benefits (eg: attacking with surprise, getting close enough to someone to pickpocket, etc). Likewise, a spell like Invisible can give some of the same benefits.
Other mixes include things like the Invisible spell making it so that you can't be seen, but if you don't hide, you can still be detected, which can get confusing. Though rather than saying that needs to be preserved, I think it needs to be looked at so that it makes sense when interacting with Stealth as well.
So, building the effects, I first want to conceptualize how this gets represented in the game system. For 5E, this ultimately boils down to 'conditions', as those are used to represent a creature's state.
5E24 tried to consolidate conditions, using Invisible to represent being hidden. While it can be understood when used that way, it gets confusing. I think it would work better to actually separate the conditions a little.
To that end, here's a list of relevant conditions and what they imply:
Notes:
- Get rid of the "both hidden, or archer firing into a Fog Cloud, cancels out advantage/disadvantage" annoyance.
We then need to know how to gain or lose these conditions.
Actions:
Hide — You make an effort to become Hidden. This may be achieved with obstacles, positioning, camouflage, or distractions, with the duration and scope of the effect depending on the method used.
To Hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check while you are in a position with at least three-quarters cover (or half cover if you are a small creature), or are Heavily Obscured from the creature(s) you are hiding from. If you roll higher than a creature's Passive Perception, you are Hidden from that creature.
Optional: A creature in combat has Advantage on its Passive Perception for this check, giving it an additional +5.
If a group attempts to hide, a single check is made using the best available Stealth, but with a penalty of -1 per creature in the group. Any creature in the group that has disadvantage on Stealth, such as from certain armors, incurs an additional -1 penalty to the check total.
You lose the Hidden condition immediately after any of the following occurs: an enemy Finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
If you are Hidden, for each consecutive turn you end your turn without any concealment, or any time you take the Dash action, your effective Stealth roll value (for the purpose of another creature's Search DC) is reduced by 5. This is reset when you end your turn with some sort of concealment, and have not used the Dash action that turn.
If you make a noise louder than a whisper, any creature that can hear you may immediately use a Reaction to Search for you, potentially Finding you. Some circumstances may lead to an auto-success, such as speaking in someone's ear while you're Hidden.
Notes:
Disguise — You make an effort to disguise yourself as another person, creature, or object. Make a Charisma (Performance) or Deception (attribute varies) check using a Disguise Kit while you are not visible to any enemy creatures. On a successful check, you are Disguised. This action may not be performed while in combat.
You lose the Disguised condition immediately after any of the following occurs: an enemy Finds you, you make an attack roll, or the disguise is damaged.
If you act in a way that breaks the believability of the disguise, any enemy creature that can perceive you may immediately use a Reaction to Search for you, potentially Finding you.
Aside: Time spent studying the person or creature you are imitating grants a bonus to the check, determined by the DM.
Invisible — You may become Invisible using a spell or magical concoction (which will define how the condition ends). Being Found does not end the Invisible condition, although it does allow an enemy to target you correctly, rather than potentially attacking an empty space. The enemy will still have disadvantage on such an attack if you are Concealed from it.
If you attempt to Hide while Invisible, you have advantage on the Stealth check, and attempts to Find you will target the Stealth check of Hide rather than the flat DC of Invisible.
Search — You may make a Wisdom (Perception) check to attempt to find a Concealed creature. The DC to find a Hidden creature is the Stealth roll it made to Hide. The DC to Find the Disguised creature is the Performance or Deception check made to don the disguise. The DC to find an Invisible creature is 15.
If you succeed on the Search check, you Find the creature. You may then alert any nearby allies of the creature's presence as part of the same action. Notified allies are considered to have Found the creature as well.
Multiple creatures may attempt to Search for a Concealed creature. If so, a single Search check is made, using the highest Perception of the group, with a bonus of +1 per creature searching.
Edit: Changed from advantage to +1 per searcher, to align with group hiding. This gives room for getting advantage from other sources.
--
A little long to write up, as it included a lot of notes, but I think it gets rid of all the glitchy issues while being relatively straightforward.
Building a Stealth System
Preliminary thoughts:
- Define what it means to be "hidden"
- Determine how it interacts with "invisible"
- Determine how it interacts with various special senses
- Determine how it interacts with multiple enemies
- Minimize any dice rolling (including for groups)
A whole lot of defining has to take place before we even get to the mechanics aspect. I'm not going to write out my thoughts, as that feels like it gets excessive. Particular issues may arise that get back to this, though, in which case I'll get more detailed.
So, the following can be considered elements of narrative "stealth", though not necessarily all at the same time:
- Not being seen
- Not being heard
- Not be detected with other senses
- Not being noticed
- Not being recognized
And what you can do with stealth:
- Move past someone without being noticed
- Stay unnoticed while someone moves past you
- Attack with surprise/advantage, whether from range or up close
- Perform actions without being noticed by someone nearby (eg: pickpocketing, searching, etc)
Some aspects of Stealth blend in with other systems. For example, posing at a waiter at a restaurant may be more of a Disguise + Performance effort than being "hidden", though it can give the same benefits (eg: attacking with surprise, getting close enough to someone to pickpocket, etc). Likewise, a spell like Invisible can give some of the same benefits.
Other mixes include things like the Invisible spell making it so that you can't be seen, but if you don't hide, you can still be detected, which can get confusing. Though rather than saying that needs to be preserved, I think it needs to be looked at so that it makes sense when interacting with Stealth as well.
So, building the effects, I first want to conceptualize how this gets represented in the game system. For 5E, this ultimately boils down to 'conditions', as those are used to represent a creature's state.
5E24 tried to consolidate conditions, using Invisible to represent being hidden. While it can be understood when used that way, it gets confusing. I think it would work better to actually separate the conditions a little.
To that end, here's a list of relevant conditions and what they imply:
- Concealed — Other creatures are not aware of your existence, or cannot pinpoint it. They do not register your presence when you or they are moving around. If you attack a creature while you are Concealed from it, and it is not Concealed from you, you have advantage on the attack roll. If you attempt to attack another creature that is Concealed from you, you have disadvantage on the attack roll.
- Hidden — You remain quiet and outside the attention or line of sight of other creatures. While you are Hidden from a creature, you gain the benefits of being Concealed from it. Effects and spells that require seeing the target cannot target you.
- Invisible — Other creatures cannot see you with normal sight. While you have this condition, you gain the benefits of being Concealed from creatures using normal sight to sense you. Effects and spells that require seeing the target cannot target you.
- Disguised — Other creatures cannot recognize you as who you are. You gain the benefits of being Concealed as long as the disguise is not broken, and is believable and appropriate for the circumstances.
- Blind — All creatures are treated as being Concealed from you. Search checks are made at disadvantage.
- Heavily Obscured — All creatures in a Heavily Obscured area are Concealed from all other creatures that are more than 5' away from them.
Notes:
- Get rid of the "both hidden, or archer firing into a Fog Cloud, cancels out advantage/disadvantage" annoyance.
We then need to know how to gain or lose these conditions.
Actions:
Hide — You make an effort to become Hidden. This may be achieved with obstacles, positioning, camouflage, or distractions, with the duration and scope of the effect depending on the method used.
To Hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check while you are in a position with at least three-quarters cover (or half cover if you are a small creature), or are Heavily Obscured from the creature(s) you are hiding from. If you roll higher than a creature's Passive Perception, you are Hidden from that creature.
Optional: A creature in combat has Advantage on its Passive Perception for this check, giving it an additional +5.
If a group attempts to hide, a single check is made using the best available Stealth, but with a penalty of -1 per creature in the group. Any creature in the group that has disadvantage on Stealth, such as from certain armors, incurs an additional -1 penalty to the check total.
You lose the Hidden condition immediately after any of the following occurs: an enemy Finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
If you are Hidden, for each consecutive turn you end your turn without any concealment, or any time you take the Dash action, your effective Stealth roll value (for the purpose of another creature's Search DC) is reduced by 5. This is reset when you end your turn with some sort of concealment, and have not used the Dash action that turn.
If you make a noise louder than a whisper, any creature that can hear you may immediately use a Reaction to Search for you, potentially Finding you. Some circumstances may lead to an auto-success, such as speaking in someone's ear while you're Hidden.
Notes:
- I got rid of the bit about losing the Hidden status if you make a noise louder than a whisper. That breaks the idea of those scenes where the enemy is taunting the protagonist (or vice-versa) while the protagonist gradually works his or her way through an area (for example, an abandoned church), perhaps with occasional shots to attempt to flush out the hidden person. Being able to speak loudly while remaining hidden helps facilitate that narrative.
- Some class or character features may allow more options for when you can hide. For example, a ranger or wood elf should be able to hide while lightly obscured. A Trickster cleric might hide behind your back. Etc.
- Leaving cover does not immediately end the Hidden condition, but remaining without some sort of concealment for multiple turns weakens it until it eventually fails.
- Leaving cover to make a melee attack works fine, as you don't lose the Hidden condition until you make the attack.
Disguise — You make an effort to disguise yourself as another person, creature, or object. Make a Charisma (Performance) or Deception (attribute varies) check using a Disguise Kit while you are not visible to any enemy creatures. On a successful check, you are Disguised. This action may not be performed while in combat.
You lose the Disguised condition immediately after any of the following occurs: an enemy Finds you, you make an attack roll, or the disguise is damaged.
If you act in a way that breaks the believability of the disguise, any enemy creature that can perceive you may immediately use a Reaction to Search for you, potentially Finding you.
Aside: Time spent studying the person or creature you are imitating grants a bonus to the check, determined by the DM.
Invisible — You may become Invisible using a spell or magical concoction (which will define how the condition ends). Being Found does not end the Invisible condition, although it does allow an enemy to target you correctly, rather than potentially attacking an empty space. The enemy will still have disadvantage on such an attack if you are Concealed from it.
If you attempt to Hide while Invisible, you have advantage on the Stealth check, and attempts to Find you will target the Stealth check of Hide rather than the flat DC of Invisible.
Search — You may make a Wisdom (Perception) check to attempt to find a Concealed creature. The DC to find a Hidden creature is the Stealth roll it made to Hide. The DC to Find the Disguised creature is the Performance or Deception check made to don the disguise. The DC to find an Invisible creature is 15.
If you succeed on the Search check, you Find the creature. You may then alert any nearby allies of the creature's presence as part of the same action. Notified allies are considered to have Found the creature as well.
Multiple creatures may attempt to Search for a Concealed creature. If so, a single Search check is made, using the highest Perception of the group, with a bonus of +1 per creature searching.
Edit: Changed from advantage to +1 per searcher, to align with group hiding. This gives room for getting advantage from other sources.
--
A little long to write up, as it included a lot of notes, but I think it gets rid of all the glitchy issues while being relatively straightforward.
Last edited:
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