D&D (2024) Reworking the 2024 Hiding rules

[KYRON45]

Eh, I just use common sense. No need to overcomplicate things. I agree that the use of the word "invisible" is unfortunate, but I've expressed my thoughts on 2024's unfortunate preference for keywords in another thread.

Yeah. Invisible means you can't be seen (by regular means)...hiding means you just haven't been seen yet.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Yeah. Invisible means you can't be seen (by regular means)...hiding means you just haven't been seen yet.

It’s not that straightforward. Invisible means you can’t be seen. Hiding means your location can’t be pinpointed.

Because, in this game, you can’t be targeted if you’re hiding but you can be targeted if you can’t be seen.

 

[KYRON45]

It’s not that straightforward. Invisible means you can’t be seen. Hiding means your location can’t be pinpointed.

Because, in this game, you can’t be targeted if you’re hiding but you can be targeted if you can’t be seen.

I’ve never had any of these problems so I’ll take your word for it.

 

[MerricB]

Hiding means your location can’t be pinpointed.

Unfortunately, the 2024 rules don't actually say that. And it's something that can be very confusing for those of us familiar with other rulesets (like 3E or PF2).

 

[Li Shenron]

Do I think this is 100% how it works? Nah - but it's my best guess at how it's intended to work!

I do not think there is any such thing as "how it's intended to work"

The rules are the result of the designers trying to bring together a bunch* of different things that they expect to come up in gameplay, and provide some rules just because people want rules, but also provide ample ambiguity and calls to DM's adjudication because people also want freedom to override the rules.

Playing the game in practice always ends up a lot easier than trying to "fix" hiding rules, and I think you know that very well since you are someone who actually plays and DMs a lot! But of course that doesn't mean that you can't have some fun discussing or brainstorming rules reworking

*Just to give an idea, you could separate two different purposes for hiding: defense (avoiding a possibly hostile encounter, or escaping one) and offense (increasing the effectiveness of your attacks). In my experience, most problematic discussions are created by players who want to use hiding for the offensive purpose. If you base your reworking of rules on the separation between the two purposes, it might help finding two different but relatively easy solutions, instead of one single but impossibly complicated solution for both.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I do not think there is any such thing as "how it's intended to work"

The rules are the result of the designers trying to bring together a bunch* of different things that they expect to come up in gameplay, and provide some rules just because people want rules, but also provide ample ambiguity and calls to DM's adjudication because people also want freedom to override the rules.

Playing the game in practice always ends up a lot easier than trying to "fix" hiding rules, and I think you know that very well since you are someone who actually plays and DMs a lot! But of course that doesn't mean that you can't have some fun discussing or brainstorming rules reworking

*Just to give an idea, you could separate two different purposes for hiding: defense (avoiding a possibly hostile encounter, or escaping one) and offense (increasing the effectiveness of your attacks). In my experience, most problematic discussions are created by players who want to use hiding for the offensive purpose. If you base your reworking of rules on the separation between the two purposes, it might help finding two different but relatively easy solutions, instead of one single but impossibly complicated solution for both.

Yes indeed. Even when we had the dozens of threads regarding 5E14 Hiding and "trying to fix it" a decade ago... there was never any consensus because every DM and table wants hiding to be something different. So there just ended up being all these potential ideas thrown out there into the ether... none of which really ever got used except by the person who threw out the idea in the first place.

Which is exactly the point-- it doesn't matter what the Hiding rules are, because every DM is going to use whatever rules they prefer regardless. If someone picked up a set of rules from some 3E-adjacent product back in 2003 and has been using those instructions for stealth ever since... they aren't going to change from those rules to whatever got printed in the 4E, 5E14 or 5E24 books. They just keep using the rules they prefer, regardless of what actually got printed as the "new rules" for stealth.

But for some reason, a lot of DMs seem to have an issue with everybody playing D&D in a different way, rather than everyone using the exact same ruleset. As though RAW is the paragon of gameplay that everyone should inspire to. Which of course is nonsense.

Hiding rules don't need to be fixed, because every DM is going to use or interpret Hiding in whatever way works for them anyway. All anyone is really doing is posting their own personal house rules on the matter... and if they are lucky, maybe one other DM out there might see those house rules and have them click on for them to become their default rules they end up using going forward for the next 20 years. Which isn't nothing I suppose... but is very little gain for the thousands of pages of text that gets typed about it every time a new set of rulebooks get released.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I’ve never had any of these problems so I’ll take your word for it.

don’t take my word for it see below:

Unfortunately, the 2024 rules don't actually say that. And it's something that can be very confusing for those of us familiar with other rulesets (like 3E or PF2).

 

[KYRON45]

don’t take my word for it see below:

I’m saying don’t find any of it confusing.
It gets confusing when people “rules lawyer” any given situation to get the best result they want.

I hope everyone finds the end result they are looking for.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Yes indeed. Even when we had the dozens of threads regarding 5E14 Hiding and "trying to fix it" a decade ago... there was never any consensus because every DM and table wants hiding to be something different. So there just ended up being all these potential ideas thrown out there into the ether... none of which really ever got used except by the person who threw out the idea in the first place.

Which is exactly the point-- it doesn't matter what the Hiding rules are, because every DM is going to use whatever rules they prefer regardless. If someone picked up a set of rules from some 3E-adjacent product back in 2003 and has been using those instructions for stealth ever since... they aren't going to change from those rules to whatever got printed in the 4E, 5E14 or 5E24 books. They just keep using the rules they prefer, regardless of what actually got printed as the "new rules" for stealth.

But for some reason, a lot of DMs seem to have an issue with everybody playing D&D in a different way, rather than everyone using the exact same ruleset. As though RAW is the paragon of gameplay that everyone should inspire to. Which of course is nonsense.

Hiding rules don't need to be fixed, because every DM is going to use or interpret Hiding in whatever way works for them anyway. All anyone is really doing is posting their own personal house rules on the matter... and if they are lucky, maybe one other DM out there might see those house rules and have them click on for them to become their default rules they end up using going forward for the next 20 years. Which isn't nothing I suppose... but is very little gain for the thousands of pages of text that gets typed about it every time a new set of rulebooks get released.

We like typing

 

[Stormonu]

This only seems to deal with sight. Which is the biggest problem with hide rules in general.

Yeah, hiding is often just more than not being seen - it has an element of being quiet/silent. I'm a little unhappy that 2024 only cares about the visual aspect. Further, some creatures can be detected/percieved by smell, but I'm not sure about the idea of using Stealth to mask one's scent.

Perhaps there should be a Hidden and a Silent condition? Invisible would be the uber version of Hidden and the Silence spell would give the uber version of Silent?