D&D (2024) Creating good stealth rules for 2024 5e

[ezo]

Right, but all of this is a matter of moving quietly, and is therefore covered by my proposed rule of using stealth checks only when you leave a suitable hiding place.


Yeah, I’m personally not a big fan of being able to hide with 3/4 cover. I think it’s only really there to facilitate situations where you hide, pop out to make a ranged attack, and pop back into cover to hide again, which full cover would prevent. But, again, my “stealth is for when you leave cover” approach would allow for this application without needing to let you hide behind only 3/4 cover.


Exactly. Hence my proposal that you shouldn’t need to roll to become hidden initiatially, you should need to roll to stay hidden while you dart from one hiding place to another, or pop out to make a qick ranged attack, sneak up to an enemy to backstab them.

I understand all of this, but sneaking is also about establishing yourself as unseen and unheard. For example, you are Heavily Obsured in a dark room as two guards walk by. Obviously, they will not see you, but even if you are trying to be quiet and not moving, you might fail and the could hear you. Will they? That is what you need the check for.

Your first sentence:

When you try to leave a position where a creature can’t see you without that creature noticing, you can take the Sneak action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

states you are trying to leave a position in order to make the check, but in my example you aren't leaving the room, just trying to be quiet.

You have to either: (a) establish an initial check or (b) make a check when a situation arises you might be noticed.

Leaving a position where you are unseen is certainly (b), but so would my scenario of trying to remain quiet as the guards pass by the dark room.

 

[Charlaquin]

I understand all of this, but sneaking is also about establishing yourself as unseen and unheard. For example, you are Heavily Obsured in a dark room as two guards walk by. Obviously, they will not see you, but even if you are trying to be quiet and not moving, you might fail and the could hear you. Will they? That is what you need the check for.

Your first sentence:

states you are trying to leave a position in order to make the check, but in my example you aren't leaving the room, just trying to be quiet.

You have to either: (a) establish an initial check or (b) make a check when a situation arises you might be noticed.

Leaving a position where you are unseen is certainly (b), but so would my scenario of trying to remain quiet as the guards pass by the dark room.

I just wouldn’t worry about it if the PC doesn’t move. Unless the guards are on alert looking for someone, in which case have them roll perception checks.

 

[ezo]

I just wouldn’t worry about it if the PC doesn’t move. Unless the guards are on alert looking for someone, in which case have them roll perception checks.

Ok, but against what DC? Since your Sneak doesn't ask for a roll until you try to leave from being Hidden, you need to set the DC somehow. That is my point, even Sneak requires an initial state (so to say).

 

[ezo]

I'll add part of my issues with Stealth is I have for a very long time felt Stealth should be passive... not Perception.

 

[Pedantic]

Ok, but against what DC? Since your Sneak doesn't ask for a roll until you try to leave from being Hidden, you need to set the DC somehow. That is my point, even Sneak requires an initial state (so to say).

Time for Passive Stealth!

 

[ezo]

Time for Passive Stealth!

As I said...

I'll add part of my issues with Stealth is I have for a very long time felt Stealth should be passive... not Perception.

 

[Stormonu]

I'm going to approach from the opposite end, with what I want to be able to accomplish while stealthed, or how I feel things should interact.

- You need cover, dim light/darkness or a distraction to attempt to Stealth and roll the Stealth check when you start being Stealthy. A reroll may be needed at certain intervals, especially if conditions change (such as stepping out of dim light into full light with no cover). High level characters (such as the Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight) may reduce/negate the need for cover.

- You move at half normal rate, unless you have a special ability that lets you move at full speed while Stealthing (Ranger and Rogue [using Canny Action] come to mind, possibly Monk [w/ Step of the Wind])

- You can sneak up on a guard to bushwhack them; the stealth isn't broken until after the attack is made, so you can come out from behind a crate, move up and don't lose the advantage on your attack until after you roll to hit the guard/opponent - as long as you can do it all in the same turn.

- You can sneak past a guard as long as you are moving from cover to cover; possibly at disadvantage if you have to expose yourself (such as full light and/or no cover along the path)

- If someone wants to attack you, their either attack "blind" or have to somehow have an idea of your position/presence. You can still try to hit a hidden individual by wildly blasting/swinging/shooting, but your attack has target the <space> where you are. Even if the attacker targets the right spot, they have disadvantage to hit.

- Attacking or casting a verbal/somatic spell breaks Stealth, but you can attempt to Stealth again if you have an ability that allows you to do so and the appropriate cover/distraction to start Stealthing.

- Enemies use their Passive Perception to detect you, unless they are actively looking and make a Wisdom (Perception) skill check against your Stealth total.

Also, notably
- Invisibility is Stealth+; attempts to see you automatically fails, but you can be detected by sound or possibly from signs of passage (footprints in flour, passing through cobwebs, etc.)

- Blindness and Deafness should have a negative effect on attempting to detect someone Stealthing. With both conditions, everyone is Stealthed to you.

 

[Sorinth]

I understand all of this, but sneaking is also about establishing yourself as unseen and unheard. For example, you are Heavily Obsured in a dark room as two guards walk by. Obviously, they will not see you, but even if you are trying to be quiet and not moving, you might fail and the could hear you. Will they? That is what you need the check for.

Trying to be quiet while not moving isn't something that you should reasonably fail at doing.

If there's something specific that would make you say sneeze or cough like say a bunch of pepper in the air then a Con saving throw is probably more appropriate then a stealth check.

 

[ezo]

Trying to be quiet while not moving isn't something that you should reasonably fail at doing.

Sure, and in my house-rules fo 2014 I grant advantage on Stealth if you are only trying to be unseen or unheard and not both, such as in this case (due to the darkness you are unseen automatically). It is pretty rare for ceatures to fail that, but it can happen.

However, this leads to other issues. Does Hide assume you aren't moving? What about while you are trying to move while Hidden or whatever?

 

[Charlaquin]

Ok, but against what DC? Since your Sneak doesn't ask for a roll until you try to leave from being Hidden, you need to set the DC somehow. That is my point, even Sneak requires an initial state (so to say).

Could just make it a contested check. Or make it vs passive stealth. The latter makes more sense to me.