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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5074436" data-attributes="member: 82106">No amount of logic chopping is going to solve this debate. Its still the same debate, which is that one side claims stealth is only reevaluated on the basis of some sort of 'change' and the other side considers it a state which is only true when specific conditions are met.The problem I see with the former argument is that there is STILL no entirely clear definition of when hidden status is reevaluated. It seems as if in this scenario allies can provide cover for stealth purposes for an indefinite period of time and that clearly isn't what the designers intended. You make it sound as if the party has to constantly do something to maintain it, but this is not true. As long as the PCs remain in the same situation the hidden character can remain hidden FOREVER and in many combats, probably most indoor situations, this means forever. Clearly this is not what the rules intended.I don't intend to argue about this anymore. The position you take is not tenable IMHO. The wording of the rules can be stretched, spindled, and mutilated to a point where what you suggest isn't absolutely clearly against some very strained interpretation of RAW but I simply do not believe that it is the correct RAI interpretation and no amount of you telling me that your opinion of how stealth should work is better than mine will change either of our positions.I think stealth should not allow you to hide in this situation unless some other type of cover is also present or some other ability exists which allows the character to maintain the gained hidden status IMMEDIATELY from the moment it is established exists.I don't believe that allies provide the quality of cover needed to stay hidden. You say 'the police do this all the time', but that's silly. Sure a WALL of police standing shoulder to shoulder can hide things going on behind them from people that are at some distance. This is not the kind of situation the 4e combat rules envision. I wouldn't even call it a combat situation and there are other rules that the DM can use out of combat to deal with this kind of thing.If the area where the hiding character is located is dimly lit, obscured, contains covering terrain, etc that the character can use to maintain the hidden status after using his allies for a hide check (which I am granting you RAW doesn't forbid) then he can stay hidden. He can't stay hidden behind his allies without such assistance. That IMHO is RAW and RAI. You don't need to respond to this, I understand your arguments infinitely well at this point and I don't feel a need to continue the discussion. Its been an interesting look at how many oddball interpretations of things there are and I appreciate your polite tone and it was a nice discussion. I just think its a waste of time to continue going in circles. Again, post to WotC Q&A and see what the AAA rated rules lawyers say. They're always fun to talk to.</blockquote>

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