Class abilities ordering

[Omegaxicor]

The Group has made a class (we each had ideas and it may be a bit over or under powered, and it is definitely M.A.D) but we are open to ideas on how to layout the abilities so that it doesn't get too much too soon or too much at one level and nothing at another

The Names of the abilities are under construction so I will just use names that explain what the ability does for now

This is a list of the abilities so far, to use the abilities marked with a * the character must be Focused, basically psionically focused but not the same

Dark Knowledge* (as Archivist, I think, rolls a knowledge check and add +1 hit/damage for every 5 points)
Flurry of Blades* (as Monk but with a specific weapon)
Weapon Focus/Specialisation tree (but without melee weapon mastery)
Counter Strike* (any attack provokes AoO and if you don't attack that round you gain Weapon enhancement to AC (this is debated and may be changed at a later date))
Insightful Strike* (as Warblade, I think, Add Intelligence to Hit with AoOs)
Master of Anatomy* (as Insightful Strike but damage based)

Monk/Ninja's unarmoured bonuses to speed/AC and Wis to AC

Some sort of precision damage to AoOs (maybe 1d6/3-4 levels or something similar)

It gets Wizard/Archivist spell casting, cast like the Spirit Shaman where you prepare a list of spells like the Wizard/Archivist but you can cast them from that list spontaneously

Does that make sense? either way I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what levels to learn those abilities (one or two may be added if I have forgotten any)

EDIT: Counter attack should read "any melee attack" it was implied that arrows and spells don't provoke an AoO from a martial class but in hindsight it wasn't as obvious as I thought

 

[the Jester]

What is the concept behind this class? Is it supposed to be a magical assassin? Some kind of variant spell-monk? I can't tell from this. Give us the flavor, and we can probably do a lot more to help you out.

What class is most likely to take this prestige class?

 

[Omegaxicor]

OK, obviously not as clear as I intended

1) The class is a base class and is a Martial class (not Tome of Battle) but gets limited spell casting both Arcane and Divine

2) as for Flavour...erm...I think it would raise more questions than it answers and would take a lot of explaining, if it is necessary then I will try...but I'd rather not

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

...Does that make sense?...

Nope.

Probably because you don't have the abilities setup in an order.

SO, you want to cast both Divine and Arcane spells, Attack in a bunch of different ways with various buffs, bonuses to damage, have bonuses to AC and speed, very powerful A. abilities.... did I miss anything?

...and some sort of focus mechanic to use the abilities? What's that about?

 

[Omegaxicor]

the order of the abilities IS the problem...

The Arcane and Divine magic is more of a "You don't get it naturally but as you find things you can learn them" ability

I'm not sure what you mean by "attack in a bunch of different ways with various buffs"

but yes Monk style bonuses to speed and AC and...idk about "very powerful" AoO abilities but yes add intelligence to Hit and Damage rolls and precision damage IF you score a critical (that part was cleared up last night)

the focus mechanic is basically the same as being psionically focused but isn't the same (so you can't use these abilities AND any psionic ones you have) but it is a Will save of 20+HD maybe, each time you use an ability you get a free action to become Focused again, fail and you have to use a swift action to do so.

clearer?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

The Arcane and Divine magic is more of a "You don't get it naturally but as you find things you can learn them" ability

The potential to learn every spell in the game, Arcane or Divine, is what puts a class in the tier 1. To potentially learn both, is powerful by itself. To add in spontanious casting like a Sorcerer and the spell list changing power of a Spirit Shaman, is a very powerful class right here, ignoring every other class ability. You've just made a Mystic Thurge base class with a sweet spells known/spells cast mechanic.
Adding in the additional combat abilities you've suggested now makes it so no one ever has any real reason to play any other class, or has to be ready to look useless next to whoever plays this class.
Perhaps if this class capped at a certain spell level, like 4th level spells, or 6th level spells, there would be some degree of balance. Chameleon does this at 6th level spells, and that PrC is considered very good.
Dragon Magizine Compendium has a base class called the Savant, which gains the ability to cast first level Arcane spells at level 5, accesses level 4 spells at class level 15. The Savant also can start casting first level divine spells at level 10, accesses level 4 spells at class level 18. At level 20 this class can cast 2 fourth level Arcane spells and 1 fourth level Divine spell per day.

I'm not sure what you mean by "attack in a bunch of different ways with various buffs"

-Flurry of Blows combat option, with a weapon
-Dark Knowledge as an attack buff
-Insightful Strike as an attack buff
-Counter Strike "All attacks provoke Attack of Opportunity"(!!)
...+Master of Anatomy damage
...+Precision damage
...+Dark Knowedge damage
........=You hit me, I hit you alot, every time, for much damage, forever.

the focus mechanic is basically the same as being psionically focused but isn't the same (so you can't use these abilities AND any psionic ones you have) but it is a Will save of 20+HD maybe, each time you use an ability you get a free action to become Focused again, fail and you have to use a swift action to do so.

So are you saying that this class can only use one of these abilities at a time, and needs to mentally reset to choose another? Because that could be an interesting balancing mechanic. The Chameleon PrC does this, and it takes an hour, than at higher levels, 10 minutes to do this. You are suggesting this could be done in a round. Powerful.

So in conclusion, you're making a Base class Mystic Thurge that can also attack whoever hits them with a lot of damage through their strong melee skills. And AC boost from the wisdom score they'd have to have for the Divine spells, and an AC bonus should they choose not to hit whoever hit them. Dark Knowledge and Insightful Strike are fueled by the high Intelegence score needed to cast those Arcane spells, making it so that you don't need a decent BAB or Strength score, you're still hitting in melee like a champ. And boosts to your landspeed.

With WIS as your AC boost, you have less a need for DEX. With Dark Knowledge and Insightful Strike, you have less need for STR. This is a INT, WIS, CON class, not really M.A.D. at all.

If this class exists, we can do away with Fighter, Barbarian, Wizard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin and Ranger as classes to consider. Bard only has party buffs, Druid only has Wild Shape over this class. With the high INT this character posesses, it's possibly even a decent skillmonkey and with precision damage applied to all A.'s, which is all the time, Rogue is out too.

If your Group wants to make a clas that can do everything so everyone can play it, then just know that's what you guys are getting into.

 

[Omegaxicor]

......wow...erm...yea, brutal but honest

The Magic aspect isn't as good as you suggest it is more of the clerics domain spells 2 or 3 of each level which to me doesn't sound as good as the other casters but maybe that would need to be removed...

Dark Knowledge doesn't apply to AoOs and Insightful Strike and Master of Anatomy are both ONLY to AoOs which I thought balanced it out, from what you have said I think it best to abandon the precision damage

Replacing the Cleric/Wizard/Rogue each of them can do better what this class can do, granted it has broad knowledge but not deep, it doesn't replace the Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger because each of them has many features this class lacks (Rage/Lay-on-Hands and Turn Undead/Archery, 2wf and favoured enemies).

As for the Monk it uses many of the same class features so yes maybe the Monk is weakened but it gets scaling damage with unarmed strikes and it's stunning fist and other abilities which set it apart. Bard has few useful abilities and I have yet to play with anyone who has chosen one so doing away with such a class is, in my experience, no great hardship.

"The Druid has Wild Shape over this class", the Druid's Wild Shape is the heart of the abuse of the class, not to mention that the Druid is greater at spellcasting (maybe with a narrower focus but with more spells/day) and has a scaling animal companion

If Intelligence is all that is required then why is the Wizard not a skill monkey class?

The Counterstrike ability is no better than Karmic Strike or Robilar's (sp?) Gambit feats and the Flurry of Blows doesn't increase the AoOs there is still only one attack per opportunity (unless you have Double Hit feat in which case two attacks)

But the MADness aspect I disagree with your conclusion:

Str is used for damage when not an AoO

Dex is used for Hit when not AoO and used for ranged attacks (should the character use any, many spells require a ranged touch attack)

Con is used for Focusing which is used to power the class abilities (I don't know the chameleon PrC so I don't understand what you mean by this ability is powerful)
Int IS used for a lot of things on the class I admit but it is drawn from his knowledge so I don't know any other attribute to draw it from

Wis is used for Divine casting and AC, as well as Spot and Listen which the class will need because being denied his Dex bonus denies him the Wis bonus as well

Cha is the attribute used for Arcane Casting (I said Wizard because he needs the Spellbook but I should have cleared that up more when I said he casts like the Spirit Shaman)

Seems pretty M.A.D to me 4 to 6 out of 6 attributes with no Dump Stat, I hope that is clearer

Finally I do appreciate your comments about it's power, some of which I think are misunderstandings...some of which are apparent to me now and have been addressed but my main issue is when to learn the abilities so that I don't learn too much too early

 

[Omegaxicor]

Does that comment mean you can't help? (thanks for the Xp anyway)

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Does that comment mean you can't help? (thanks for the Xp anyway)

Honestly I think I don't know how to help you at this stage with your specific question.

I did appreciate your thoughtful response, and feel like if you keep weighing the input and weighing the abilities, you'll eventually sort it out. The Xp was because I admire the effort of you and yours, and want to encourage creativity.

I must confess I personally am not one of the contributors to this forum that is very good at homebrewed classes, or customizing anything outside RAW very well. We have many other people who I have seen be very good at this. My strengths lie more in figuring out how to accomplish things within the existing, official mechanics of the 3.x system.

I feel like I had enough knowledge to point out what looked like flaws, but unfortunately not enough knowledge to help you fix them.

Hopefully the rest of our colleagues here can be of more help to you!

 

[Omegaxicor]

ah ok, well thanks very much, until your input the class looked a little overpowered afterwards it was apparent that it was a one man/women (for PCness) party