class ability subsitutions (the familiar)

[Andion Isurand]

Lets say I want to play a wizard or a sorcerer, but I don't want to have a familiar at all... but I want something else instead to balance that loss.

Would you allow me to get a bonus feat or something to make up for?
Why or why not?

If so, what ones might you allow?

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Also......would you allow someone to trade the Scribe Scroll "Wizard Lvl 1" feat for another magic related feat?
Why or why not?

If so, what ones might you allow?

 

[Samothdm]

Funny - I just asked the exact same question yesterday in this thread, but I totally forgot that Wizards already get "Scribe Scroll" for free at 1st Level. There were some interesting replies, though.

Also, I happened to see a thread today about this on Monte Cook's message boards. The community over there seem to all think that if you take Familiars away from Sorcerers and Wizards that you don't need to replace them, because the Familiars are balanced by the idea that if they are killed, the spellcaster owner takes damage. By taking them away completely, there's no danger of that happening so there's no change if you take them away. Not sure that I'm in 100% agreement with that reasoning but I can kind of see where they're coming from.

 

[Andion Isurand]

If the choice between having or not having a familiar is so ambivalent, why consider it a useful class ability?

Especially for those sorcerers.

Without a familiar, they get no real abilities besides their spells.

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I mean....

Core clerics have Turning/Rebuking and Domains.
Core bards have Music & Knowledge.
Core druids have Wildshape.

For these spellcasters, thier special abilities don't seem so ambivalent to me.

 

[GrayIguana]

Swapping Character Abilities

As DM I allow my characters to swap out certain class abilities as long as the swap is an equal trade. What you have brought up is a perfect example.

The wizard and the sorcerer in my group did not want a familiar. I let them each have a feat of their choice instead. I also let them swap out the Scribe Scroll feat for another feat of the their choice. My reasoning is that the if the feats are more or less balanced, this should not upset the game.

I feel this also allows for more customization of the characters.

I can see the point where the familiar is also a liability for the arcane spell caster, but it seemed unfair to not allow some kind of trade for the spellcaster who doesn't necessarily want a familiar.

In addition, I've also allowed certain clerics to sacrifice the ability to turn undead for someother "advanceable ablility". For example, my current homebrew has a priest of The God of War. This god has little interest in controlling or destroying the undead. He also has very little interest in the spirit world. He and his worshipers exist to battle and lead in war. As such I allowed my cleric to take one of the divine feats and use it a number of times per day equal to what he could use the turning dead ability. This seems to have worked rather well.

I think one of the main things to consider as well is whether the special ability resembles a feat or a skill. If the ability is something that the character gets better at with experience then the new ability should reflect that. If the unwanted ability is no better than a feat then swapping with any other feat should not unbalance the character.

 

[Vaxalon]

Not all feats are created equal.

Would you allow a fighter with dexterity 18 and strength 10 to trade his heavy armor proficiency feat for, say, combat reflexes?

Would you allow a fighter with strength 18 and dexterity 10 to trade his rapier proficiency for power attack?

The familiar is a nifty little ability, but I don't think it's necessarily worth a feat.

 

[Spatula]

Re: class ability subsitutions

Losing the ability to get a familiar is not worth a feat. I could see it being worth something really minor, like maybe some extra class skills, but that's it. Familiars can be useful scouts at low levels but aren't good for much else IMO, and the character always faces the risk of the familiar getting killed.

I'd let Scribe Scroll be replaced with a different wizard bonus feat. That basically means any metamagic feat or Spell Mastery.

 

[Rary the Traitor]

Not all feats are created equal.

Would you allow a fighter with dexterity 18 and strength 10 to trade his heavy armor proficiency feat for, say, combat reflexes?

Would you allow a fighter with strength 18 and dexterity 10 to trade his rapier proficiency for power attack?

The familiar is a nifty little ability, but I don't think it's necessarily worth a feat.

Well, yeah, it's obviously up to the DM to decide whether an
ability or feat is equal in strenght to another.

For instance, one of the PCs in the first 3rd ed D&D game I ever played was a duelist; he thought some of the duelist abilities from Sword & Fist weren't very well suited to his character, or even to duelists in general, so the DM allowed him to learn Quick Draw instead of Enhanced Mobility (level 3 duelist ability), and Improved Disarm instead of Deflect Arrows (level 9 ability). Pretty fair, I think.

 

[haiiro]

If the choice between having or not having a familiar is so ambivalent, why consider it a useful class ability?

Especially for those sorcerers.

Without a familiar, they get no real abilities besides their spells.

I think sorcerers need at least a sprinkling of minor abilities as they progress in levels, just to keep things interesting -- but that's a topic unto itself.

As far as what should balance the removal of the familiar from sorcerers and wizards, here's how I see it...

Every familiar provides a free feat (Alertness, albeit with a limitation), plus a free ability of variable power (ranging from a free feat -- the fox grants Lightning Reflexes, for example -- to the toad's powerful and problematic +2 CON), plus the versatility of having a companion that can deliver touch spells, spy unnoticed, etc. Even taking the level loss aspect into account (if the familiar croaks), I think it's a pretty solid class feature overall.

I think all of this is worth at least one feat, and personally I'd say it's actually worth two feats. In the other thread that Samothdm mentioned, Hollywood suggests replacing it with a feat at 1st and a feat at 11th (to reflect the scaling of the familiar's abilities as the PC progresses in level), and I think this is a perfect solution.

 

[CombatWombat51]

Besides being a decent scout, familiars are basically Alertness feats on four legs. Sure, they carry the drawback of harming the caster if they die, but that's only likely to come up if the familiar is scouting... so those two points seem to cancel each other out. That leaves familiars being Alertness.

Sure, I'd let a caster dump Four-Legged Alertness for a different feat.

 

[Oni]

I personally consider familiars to be extremely good. I'd say they are worth a feat at the very least.