D&D 5E Class bloat without multiclassing?

Nevertheless, it is my experience. Like I said, yours may vary. :)





That's eminently reasonable. I do, however, want to give you something to think about.

I put it to you that the only thing restricting you from exploring new characters is you. If you want to play a swashbuckling pirate, or a knight errant in the Arthurian vein, or Conan, you can do all of that within the Fighter, as it exists as expressed in the PHB. It doesn't have to have anything to do with unique crunch, at least beyond the PHB Fighter class and the background you choose. It does depend on how you approach it at the table. :cool:

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

I don't agree with this. Not all desires for new classes are for flavor and theme purposes only. Cool new mechanics, or certain combos of old mechanics that you can't get (or can't easily get without having a mechanically poor char) are what make getting a new class fun and exciting for a lot of players. Assuming that player's should be ok with uniqueness in flavor without uniqueness in mechanics... that isn't really understanding what makes a lot of players like D&D.
 
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As someone who remembers the early days of D&D, and who gamed through the transition from story-based character-concept communication to mechanics-based, through the time of umpteen gajillion kits and classes and feats to the "book bloat" of 4e, it feels to me like the designers of 5e deliberately made 5e a mechanically simpler, class-based system which has infinitely more in common with OD&D and AD&D than any other version
Though I have nearly the same breadth of experience (starting in '80 with Basic & 1e AD&D), I have a different feel for complexity with respect of AD&D and 5e. Maybe because I branched out into a lot of other game there in the 90s & late 80s? Maybe due to disease or mental defect on my part. IDK.

That is, in absolute terms, AD&D was insanely complex, and not just complex, but needlessly complicated. (Don't get me wrong, 1e AD&D was my first love of RPGs, and still favorite edition, if I must pick a favorite for that reason, but I will hold that at arms length and look at it analytically, and when I do, I have to acknowledge that it's insane.) For one thing, it was the first RPGs, and RPGs are necessarily more complex than traditional board games like Monopoly or whatever, just enormously moreso. For another, D&D was essentially 'experimental' until 2e, at least.

And, of course, in reaching for the 'feel' of classic editions, 5e has embraced some of their complexity, even including some (thankfully eschewing a lot, like attack matrixes, percentile checks, armor vs weapon adjustments, random psionics, etc, etc, etc) of the /needless/ complexity that complicated it.

The result, though, feels like the classic game, so if you played the classic game, it feels familiar. And the ease of slipping into something familiar is very like that of picking up something simple.

And it's not like that's even a good strategy 'only' for the long-time and returning player. The best way to learn D&D is to play with an experienced DM. By attracting and meeting the expectations of a lot of experienced players & DMs, 5e provides new players with a better chance at having a good first experience at the table of one of those experienced DMs.

and that the optional multi-classing and feats rules were tacked on to specifically appeal to those whose enjoyment of the game is predicated on optimization.
I think it was more specifically to appeal to fans of 3.x, and it's telling that those two components stand out as explicitly optional, while bits and pieces of 4e that could have been made optional like Healing Surges (in the bowdlerized form of HD) became core.

I think 5e, to a small extent, wrote off the most ardent fans of 3.5/PF (or perhaps the most-resentful-of-WotC fringe of those fans, to put it another way).

... 5e is bad at being Pathfinder! :)
Well said. Ironically, though, both 5e & PF are quite good at being D&D, IMHO.

I rather agree. I don't think it'll unbalance the game, per se.
It'd have to balance it in the first place, then unbalance it. ;P

I think it's an attempt to turn one game into another, and I think that's a terrible thing to do when all you have to do to be happy is play the game you like.
But it's a necessary thing for 5e to present tools to do, because it's not exclusively for fans of the classic game, but also those fans of the modern game who aren't so bitter that they refuse to give WotC a 2nd (5th? 13th?) chance.

Thus the tentative 'modular' design, with things like Feats and MCing presented, but explicitly 'optional' and any subsequent supplements very optional, indeed.

We have the stripped-down, basic version of the game in a pdf.

We have the rich, 'classic' (A)D&D version of the game in the non-optional PH rules.

We have a taste of the more option-rich, system-mastery-rewarding version of the game in the optional PH & DMG rules.

But, there's plenty more that could be released, and hopefully will be, without having to have the least impact on the basic-pdf or the PH-only campaigns out there.
 

Agreed. This last point makes this whole thing a non-debate, because everyone can win here, whether the OP's point is true or not.

I will add to this that there's certainly a case to be made regarding prioritization (it is in fact the case I'm making in the Warlord debate). If WotC has limited resources to produce content of any kind, and they produce something that you want instead of something that I want, there's definitely a winner and a loser there. Anyone who's waited for a new UA only to get and say "oh, that's what they decided to do this week/month?" certainly knows how that feels.
 


Nevertheless, it is my experience. Like I said, yours may vary. :)



I don't have too much of a problem with new classes. I think that most of them can be done with changes in flavor and actual play than with official splat, that's all. If you want to have a bare-knuckle tavern brawler, you don't need a new class. You don't even need that feat! You can get exactly what you want if you play your Way of the Open Hand Monk inventively.



That's eminently reasonable. I do, however, want to give you something to think about.

I put it to you that the only thing restricting you from exploring new characters is you. If you want to play a swashbuckling pirate, or a knight errant in the Arthurian vein, or Conan, you can do all of that within the Fighter, as it exists as expressed in the PHB. It doesn't have to have anything to do with unique crunch, at least beyond the PHB Fighter class and the background you choose. It does depend on how you approach it at the table. :cool:

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

I'm all for taking new twists on re-flavoring classes. I've done this with the Monk multiple times; I had a Wood Elf Shadow Monk that was a guerrilla fighter dual-wielding hand-axes. I've re-used Way of Open Fist to represent Soulknives and Way of Five Elements for Pyrokineticists... and that works...

...to a point.

See, inspiration is not a bolt of lightning. It is not a muse whispering in your ear. Inspiration is content. It is the sum total of everything we see and read and experience. I can't decide I want to play Conan if I've never heard of Conan. I didn't know I wanted to play a character like an Archivist until I bought Heroes of Horror. I didn't know I wanted to play an Incarnate until my buddy walked in with a copy of Magic of Incarnum. New mechanics are just as much sources of inspiration as anything else; they have the added bonus of already being expressed mechanically in the system. I don't necessarily want new classes so I can play something I already want to play (although I've said as much in other threads and possibly this one, but you're right, if I really wanted to play that concept with what we have now I'd find away); what I love is the idea of picking up a new book, reading a new class and thinking "wow, this is awesome, I want to play a character like this."
 


If there were no multiclassing rules in 5e would class bloat be such a bad thing?

Tricky question. The best answer I can give is that since the multiclassing rules do exist, I think class bloat would be a bad thing.
The occasional extra class is fine, but each unnecessary new official class represents time and resources on the devs part that I would probably have preferred spent on other things.

Filling in specific niches that the existing classes cover only in general, and creation of weird and wonderful new mechanics strikes me as the sort of thing the DM'sGuild is for, and it performs that task well.
 

If WotC has limited resources to produce content of any kind, and they produce something that you want instead of something that I want, there's definitely a winner and a loser there.
Sure. In that sense, there are a lot of 5e-winners who already have lots of stuff they want, even if not quite everything they want. And losers, even with nothing they care for so far, may yet become winners later. Patience, I suppose, is key, and the relative lack of nerdraging and edition warring we've seen over two years into 5e, with it's slow pace of publication, seems to me to indicate that enough of us have acquired some, somewhere along the line.

(Or maybe WotC's surveys really have let them serve the most impatient/nerdragey first?)
 
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Nevertheless, it is my experience. Like I said, yours may vary. :)
Ah, okay. Perhaps your point may have been better served had it been presented as less... global. But, cool. In that case, I'll continue to express that my experience with 5e has lead me to a different opinion, and we can go our separate ways. :D
 

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