Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Class Compendium Official Announcement
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5353997" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>True. However, again, I think you (and others) are under-stating the changes that we're seeing with Essentials, to a similar degree that the changes to 3.5 have been over-stated. In my opinion the difference in response is the real interesting thing - that people aren't nearly as upset as they were with 3.5 (I'm not saying they should be, mind you, but that the difference in the mechanical changes between the two sub-editions is a lot closer than the difference in reaction would make it seem). </p><p></p><p>Why is this? I'm not entirely sure, but it may be that the "Red Box Gamble" paid off and WotC was able to package Essentials in such a way, and make sure that any compatibility issues were relatively minor, that 4E players haven't minded so much. And it also seems that there is a small, but significant, number of pre-4E players that are willing to give Essentials a shot again (it still remains to be seen how many lapsed players will be netted).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You just described Essentials as well. One of the things that happens with any edition is that there is an accumulation of product--in the case of 4E, something like 35 hardcover books--and it makes it more and more daunting for a newbie to enter. So the purpose behind Essentials was, as Bill Slaviscek pointed out, to create an "on-ramp at 1st street" rather than the more advanced 4E core rulebook one at "10th street."</p><p></p><p>The other aspect, though, is that Essentials is just different enough, with enough new formatting, rules, errata, builds etc, that a lot of old players are buying it to.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The cheapness of Essentials is largely a smoke and mirrors thing, imo. Here we have the starting packages for both games, with the Essentials equivalent of the 4E core, with both list price and Amazon price in parentheses:</p><p></p><p><strong>4E</strong> - <em>Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual - </em>$105 (currently $66, was as low as $55 when it first came out).</p><p><strong>Essentials</strong> - <em>Rules Compendium, DM's Kit, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forbidden Kingdoms, Monster Vault - </em>$135 ($87).</p><p></p><p>One could argue that you don't <em>need </em>both <em>Heroes </em>books<em>, </em>but in order to have all the classes and races in the <em>PHB, </em>you do (I'm not sure if one absolutely needs the <em>RC </em>if one has the first <em>Heroes </em>book, but I think so).</p><p> </p><p>So to put it another way, the cost of entry is actually <em>more </em>with Essentials, at least if you want the whole package. One could also say that it is less if a player just wants to play a Knight - all they have to do is buy <em>HotFL; </em>or that all a DM has to do is buy the <em>DM's Kit, Monster Vault, </em>and <em>Rules Compendium </em>for $80 (or $53), which is a bit less than the core 4E books. But you still get less overall.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, so the difference is D&D Insider. Without D&D Insider, Essentials would be little different than 3.5. I think this is key.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and I can see the logic behind the approach they have taken, although I still would like to see a revised version of at least the <em>Player's Handbook</em><em> - </em>probably without uncommon and rare magic items, but maybe a few added classes, races, builds and the inclusion of themes. Why? Because I greatly prefer it. I like the <em>Rules Compendium </em>as a handy table reference, but I dislike the <em>Heroes </em>books, or at least like them much less than the old Hardcover Tome approach.</p><p></p><p>Maybe the best of both worlds? Meaning, both? Even with all the <em>Heroes </em>books coming out and the <em>Class Compendium, </em>I think a revised <em>PHB </em>would sell well, especially if it was beefed up with additional classes (druid and bard?) and races (gnomes!). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think Imaro has taken up this line of discussion quite well, especially his bringing in the subjective element of "PitA."</p><p></p><p>I do think you bring up a good point about the "pick-up-sticks" nature of 3.5 vs. the more modular design of 4E. If anything it may point out that WotC learned from its design mistakes of 3.x and crafted a better system with 4E! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 5353997, member: 59082"] True. However, again, I think you (and others) are under-stating the changes that we're seeing with Essentials, to a similar degree that the changes to 3.5 have been over-stated. In my opinion the difference in response is the real interesting thing - that people aren't nearly as upset as they were with 3.5 (I'm not saying they should be, mind you, but that the difference in the mechanical changes between the two sub-editions is a lot closer than the difference in reaction would make it seem). Why is this? I'm not entirely sure, but it may be that the "Red Box Gamble" paid off and WotC was able to package Essentials in such a way, and make sure that any compatibility issues were relatively minor, that 4E players haven't minded so much. And it also seems that there is a small, but significant, number of pre-4E players that are willing to give Essentials a shot again (it still remains to be seen how many lapsed players will be netted). You just described Essentials as well. One of the things that happens with any edition is that there is an accumulation of product--in the case of 4E, something like 35 hardcover books--and it makes it more and more daunting for a newbie to enter. So the purpose behind Essentials was, as Bill Slaviscek pointed out, to create an "on-ramp at 1st street" rather than the more advanced 4E core rulebook one at "10th street." The other aspect, though, is that Essentials is just different enough, with enough new formatting, rules, errata, builds etc, that a lot of old players are buying it to. The cheapness of Essentials is largely a smoke and mirrors thing, imo. Here we have the starting packages for both games, with the Essentials equivalent of the 4E core, with both list price and Amazon price in parentheses: [B]4E[/B] - [I]Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual - [/I]$105 (currently $66, was as low as $55 when it first came out). [B]Essentials[/B] - [I]Rules Compendium, DM's Kit, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forbidden Kingdoms, Monster Vault - [/I]$135 ($87). One could argue that you don't [I]need [/I]both [I]Heroes [/I]books[I], [/I]but in order to have all the classes and races in the [I]PHB, [/I]you do (I'm not sure if one absolutely needs the [I]RC [/I]if one has the first [I]Heroes [/I]book, but I think so). So to put it another way, the cost of entry is actually [I]more [/I]with Essentials, at least if you want the whole package. One could also say that it is less if a player just wants to play a Knight - all they have to do is buy [I]HotFL; [/I]or that all a DM has to do is buy the [I]DM's Kit, Monster Vault, [/I]and [I]Rules Compendium [/I]for $80 (or $53), which is a bit less than the core 4E books. But you still get less overall. Right, so the difference is D&D Insider. Without D&D Insider, Essentials would be little different than 3.5. I think this is key. Yes, and I can see the logic behind the approach they have taken, although I still would like to see a revised version of at least the [I]Player's Handbook[/I][I] - [/I]probably without uncommon and rare magic items, but maybe a few added classes, races, builds and the inclusion of themes. Why? Because I greatly prefer it. I like the [I]Rules Compendium [/I]as a handy table reference, but I dislike the [I]Heroes [/I]books, or at least like them much less than the old Hardcover Tome approach. Maybe the best of both worlds? Meaning, both? Even with all the [I]Heroes [/I]books coming out and the [I]Class Compendium, [/I]I think a revised [I]PHB [/I]would sell well, especially if it was beefed up with additional classes (druid and bard?) and races (gnomes!). I think Imaro has taken up this line of discussion quite well, especially his bringing in the subjective element of "PitA." I do think you bring up a good point about the "pick-up-sticks" nature of 3.5 vs. the more modular design of 4E. If anything it may point out that WotC learned from its design mistakes of 3.x and crafted a better system with 4E! ;) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Class Compendium Official Announcement
Top