Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Gradine" data-source="post: 5354997" data-attributes="member: 57112">It's telling that the most convincing arguments on the &quot;Essentials = 4.5&quot; side reference rules updates that happened long before Essentials was a twinkle in anyone's eye (skill challenges, stealth, hit/damage math changes). It's obvious that the most significant and substantial changes to the 4.0 &quot;core&quot; occurred long before HotFL hit the shelves.Meanwhile, most of the changes in Essentials are superficial at best. They'd have to be, otherwise there's no compatibility. The new class builds are simply that... builds. That's nothing new. Nothing's changed, certainly not in the sense of the above-mentioned changes. The most substantial changes are to the feat system (essentially canning a few prereqs) and to the magic item system (replacing &quot;I bought this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!&quot; with &quot;I found this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!&quot;). Again, really superficial changes, especially considering how substantially a few other systems have been errata'd. In fact, let's rank all of these changes from most substantial to least substantial, and compare them to their respective &quot;general&quot; fan consensus:Monster Manual 3 Math: -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Best Monster Manual ever, bar none!&quot;DMG2 Skill Challenges: -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Well, I guess it's better than it was before...&quot;Stealth Changes: -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Ohhhhhhhhhh. That makes sense.&quot;Essentials: -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;4.5! Ruined forever!&quot;Okay, maybe the feat changes are a bit more substantial than the stealth update. But not by much.Either we hit 4.5 with the Monster Manual 3 or we haven't seen it yet. Essentials makes a nice, easy straw target but it's got even less substance than arguments of this nature have had in the past.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gradine, post: 5354997, member: 57112"] It's telling that the most convincing arguments on the "Essentials = 4.5" side reference rules updates that happened long before Essentials was a twinkle in anyone's eye (skill challenges, stealth, hit/damage math changes). It's obvious that the most significant and substantial changes to the 4.0 "core" occurred long before HotFL hit the shelves. Meanwhile, most of the changes in Essentials are superficial at best. They'd have to be, otherwise there's no compatibility. The new class builds are simply that... [I]builds[/I]. That's nothing new. Nothing's [I]changed[/I], certainly not in the sense of the above-mentioned changes. The most substantial changes are to the feat system (essentially canning a few prereqs) and to the magic item system (replacing "I bought this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!" with "I found this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!"). Again, really superficial changes, especially considering how substantially a few other systems have been errata'd. In fact, let's rank all of these changes from most substantial to least substantial, and compare them to their respective "general" fan consensus: Monster Manual 3 Math: - "Best Monster Manual ever, bar none!" DMG2 Skill Challenges: - "Well, I guess it's [I]better[/I] than it was before..." Stealth Changes: - "Ohhhhhhhhhh. That makes sense." Essentials: - "4.5! Ruined forever!" Okay, [I]maybe[/I] the feat changes are a bit more substantial than the stealth update. But not by much. Either we hit 4.5 with the Monster Manual 3 or we haven't seen it yet. Essentials makes a nice, easy straw target but it's got even less substance than arguments of this nature have had in the past. [/QUOTE]

Verification