Class complexity in D&D

Leviatham

Explorer
Recently, Bruce Cordell asked about this subject in the Wizards of the Coast website.

The question is a legitimate one. The different versions of Dungeons & Dragons have all dealt differently with the way classes are equipped for the roles they are meant to play in the game. 4th Edition offers a series of abilities and resources that you can use as designed (at will, per encounter and daily). 3rd Edition provided with a much crunchier method of applying options with skills that are tailored to each class. Thus a wizard would be more likely to write and read than a warrior and a warrior would be more likely to be dungeon savvy than a wizard, etc.

The good thing about the 4th Edition way of doing things, is that every class has been very well balanced, so every player has a similar number of options, making all characters very similar in complexity, whether you are a warrior tank, a paladin, a wizard or anything else. In 3rd Edition or 3.5, you could just add a few abilities to your warrior and you had a simple character that was easy to run and with plenty of opportunities for role playing. Or at least that’s the theory.

There are things I like about both systems. I like the balance of 4th Edition, and I like the flexibility of 3rd Edition. Unfortunately, both are not compatible at the moment.

What I would like to have is a system in which I can create a simple character in whatever class I choose, without loosing balance if other members of the party are playing complex characters. If I have a novice player arriving at my party and that player is interested in playing a wizard, I would like to be able to provide a simple character that then she’ll be able to develop and increase its complexity.

And this is where it could be problematic. The advancement.

Regardless of what edition of D&D you’ve ever played, one thing is clear, higher levels threaten balance and make characters more difficult to play and control. Encounters are more difficult to plan and balance to keep fun and interesting without derailing the whole adventure.

So, from my point of view, the situation has two main aspects that need to be addressed:

We need a skills system that will allow for the creation of both simple and complex characters in whatever class that will remain balanced with the rest of the classes.
A character advancement system that will cater for changes in skill-load and help keep all characters balanced at any level.
This would allow for a party in which two wizards could have different levels of complexity, but have similar level of power, and thus opportunities to impact the adventure. Of course the same should be true for different classes. I would like my complex fighter to be as balanced as my simple wizard at the same level.

No doubt this is a great deal easier said tan done, but it would ensure an equal level of interaction, and thus of usefulness, from all players and enable anyone to feel they are having as good a time and as important a role as any other class.

How to do that? Over to you!
 

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1) you need one system to deal with all the interactions cause skills are imbalanced within the concept of a numerical skill point itself. athletics +8 cannot be in the same "weight category" as intimidate +8, cause they are too different in complexity
2) feats and powers and rituals are really more than enough
3) daily powers and rituals should be reworked (daily shouldn't really be "once-per-day" but some kind of "once-per-day-or-get-hurt"; and ritual is a brilliant way to get all routine at a "backstage" of a game, so it have to be an universal approach to fix all the little problems and issues.
4) and there should be some "untrained" at-will powers and rituals to deal with some non-standart situations and "too standard" situations too, like "I want to jump using my basic levitate power" and "I want to go to taverns all around the city and briefly find out a certain thing"
p.s. sorry for my english
 

I agree with you on your first point. In fact I think is probably one of the things that got 3rd Edition characters out of balance.

For example the fumble rule. Every fighter, regardless of the skill or level, has a 5% of failing. Doesn't make sense that a fighter of 10th level has the same chance of absolute failure than a 1st level one.

However the point is whether you want to see the same level of complexity in all classes, or if you want some classes to be "simpler" than others.

Should a fighter class be always simpler than a wizard, cleric, rogue...
 

I think variable complexity in the game is a good thing, as it welcomes players of all skill levels. But I'd prefer to have scalable complexity for all classes, so the fighter isn't automatically the newb's class and the druid isn't automatically the expert's class. Also, in spite of complexity, all classes should play well together.
 

If you want a complex fighter you need to stop interpreting fighter as a common part of an infantry. That happens automatically. You can imagine fireball really easy, and complex fighter is something really difficult. So what do you need? A good shift of a paradigm called "dumb fighter hits with a sword"
Imagine different stances, feints, lethal tricks, combo's, mounted combat, exclusive weapons with unique feats. Also imagine social role of a good fighter - he could add some strategic preparation, buff his party member's melee and ranged attacks (no magic, just training!), add some alternative social skills or feats for solving problems (former king's guardsman with some sort of credentials or scroll with some good words could gain extra bonuses in solving some social-based encounter).
I mean, fighter-simpler-than-everybody problem is in our imagination, not in a limitations of any rpg system. To have an interesting fighter = to forget all the stereotypes about simple fighters.
 

I personally hope each class comes as two versions as core. One would be simpler, probably with higher raw numbers. The other version would be more complex with a vast amount of customizable aspects.

The fighter could either grant a large raw bonus to damage that increases with level (simple) OR have a selection of switchable stances that grant variable bonuses (complex).

The wizard could cast the the same 3 spells over and over with increased strength (simple) OR have his spell slots completely open to per filled anyway he chooses (complex).

Rogue could choose to be a jack of all trades and get a raw bonus to all skill checks and a basic sneak attack (simple) OR be able to choose the strength of their various skills and add effects to their sneak attack (complex).
 

I'm not sure these approaches are mutually exclusive.

You can have a simple fighter, a complex fighter, a simple wizard, and a complex wizard (just for example), so that you have flexibility within a class--and yet it can also be true that the simple wizard is a bit more intricate than the simple fighter, and the complex wizard more intricate than the complex fighter.

And as much as I'm a fan of overall balance--that's "overall," not "in every detail/particular/situation"--and as much as I'm a fan of many classes that would probably be stuck on the "less flexible" end of things, I do believe that some classes simply need to be more complicated, and have more options, than others.
 

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they aiming towards a simpelfied core system with the ability to add complexity through modules? And if so than are you talking about the core system or the modules?

Honestly, I would like to play a simpelfied wizard, just give me some spells and basic abilities and I'm good to go but when it comes to fighters I would like my fighter to be able to do amazing stuff like Achilles in Troy, is he a complex fighter?

Warder
 

There should be a simple version of each class, and then options to make each more complex as well.

A simple wizard might only use at-wills and a short list of spells, a simple cleric might primarily heal and fight in melee, a simple rogue might have a short list of focused skills.

Conversely, a complex fighter could have a range of maneuvers, stances, and styles.
 

I agree with you on your first point. In fact I think is probably one of the things that got 3rd Edition characters out of balance.

For example the fumble rule. Every fighter, regardless of the skill or level, has a 5% of failing. Doesn't make sense that a fighter of 10th level has the same chance of absolute failure than a 1st level one.

By Fumble do you mean 'always miss on a one'? If so, it isn't always the same chance. It's just that success rate can't go past 95%. Unless the targets' AC is very low, the 10th level Fighter should have a better hit chance than the 1st level. Same thing happens at the other end. With very high target AC, both fighters have the same 5% hit chance.

It's a little degenerate, but not a big deal, I think. And it makes some sense, in principle. If they're both fighting a 40th level god, it would make sense that the difference between 10th level and 1st level won't mean much.

Alternatively, do you mean Fumble as in "something bad, beyond missing, on a 1"? If so, that's not a standard 3E rule. What you pointed out is one of many reasons why such rules are bad ideas.
 

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