Class Construction Guide requesting feedback

[tjoneslo]

I've posted a new document in the downloads section of ENWorld called the Class Construction Guide. This guide is supposed to let you evalute new classes and compare them to old ones to see how balanced they are. In addition to covering the base D&D classes and D&D's prestige classes, it also works for Epic classes and D20 Modern/Future.

Thank you for your time. I'm looking for feedback and advice. Of all sorts. Is this a good idea or not?
I used the classes from the SRD's to do the analysis, is there another collection of good classes which I should look through?

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

I like this system very much. I'd be curious how well the Ultimate Classes would work out.

It certainly makes it a lot easier to evaluate PrC's more easily, and to compare them to existing classes. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be.. It needs to give you a "Good enough", to evaulate if something is about fair.

Colin "Not great at doing it in my head" Davis

 

[tjoneslo]

Let's try one just for giggles, The ultimate ranger in the link.

Ultimate Ranger: Hit Dice d10 (40), 4 skill points per level (30), 19 class skills (20), Good BAB (50), One good save (15), Proficient with all armors and shields (35), proficient with all weapons (25), six bonus feats (30), Track (5), four wilderness abilities (20), Favored emeny (15), Grace (10), four special abilites (20). Total: 315

This is way over the top end of the base D&D classes. But looking at the Ultimate Figher I get:

Ultimate Figher: Hit Dice d10 (40), 4 skill points per level (30), 6 class skills (10), Good BAB (50), One Good Save (15), all armors and sheilds (35), all weapons (25), 8 bonus feats (40), three specializations (15), four special abilities (20). Total 280.

It looks as though, without having read through all the ultimate classes, these are up-powered versions of the base classes. I wouldn't uses these with the D20 base calsses.

The real test comes in playtesting. Did you find significant differences between your classes and the base casses, or these two classes?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I hope you were serious when you said you'd like feedback!

Thank you for your time. I'm looking for feedback and advice. Of all sorts. Is this a good idea or not?

I think the idea of such a system is laudable, but I think that balance is largely dependant on the synergies between abilities and the inherent restrictions on various bonuses. I don't think a simple addititve system will ever be able to measure balance well.

Specific issues:

Heavy armor proficiency in a class (including light and medium, but not shields) is worth 30 points, which is the same as 6 bonus feats. I'd say this is worth about 1 feat, maybe less.

I don't think illiteracy is worth -5; maybe -2 at best. +2 skill points per level is worth 15 poimts in this system, so over 20 levels that's 46/15 ~= 3 skill points per class point. Illiteracy takes 2 skill points to buy off, and most barbarians don't buy it off (so to them, it's worth less than 2 skill points).

I think that the difference between "Good" and "Moderate" base attack is much greater than that between "Moderate" and "Poor". A monk with fighter BA is much better, but a sorcerer with monk BA isn't that much stronger.

I think that individual weapon and armor proficiencies are underrated. Consider a class proficient with only the bastard sword, spiked chain, and full plate....

I think the ability to summon a familiar is worth about 0 points. Some would have it equal to a feat, but in any case it's not worth 3 feats.

The game designers have stated that the monk and paladin multiclass restrictions aren't a balance issue, they're flavor and can be ignored safely by individual DMs without regard harming the game. -10 is extreme in any case.

10 dice of sneak attack is worth more than 4 feats; I'd think it's closer to 10. WotC;s Unearthed Arcana has a martial rogue variant (p. 58) which gives up the 10 SA dice for 11 bonus feats, as well as a figher variant which does the reverse.

In my experience, slow fall isn't as valuable as a single feat, let alone two.

Abundant step, perfect self, and diamond soul aren't worth 15 points in total, let alone individually.

I'm concerned that there's nothing adjusting for the length of the class. 3-level prestige classes with the same number of points as 20-level classes would naturally be more powerful, assuming the requirements aren't particularly prohibitive. (Even then I'd wonder.)

Do you plan to do a comparison using the 3.5 versions of the classes?

 

[tjoneslo]

I hope you were serious when you said you'd like feedback!

Absolutely. This is great, thank you for this.

I think the idea of such a system is laudable, but I think that balance is largely dependant on the synergies between abilities and the inherent restrictions on various bonuses. I don't think a simple addititve system will ever be able to measure balance well.

This is the core problem with any point buy system. Depending upon the campaign setting and your play style, every ability can have a different cost. It was the reason many people don't like point buy systems.If you change one ability cost, does that throw the entire system out of wack.
Trying to glom a point system on top of a rule set not designed with one in mind, and in some cases specifically so, can run into many difficulties. My solution to this problem was to use a broad categories rather than very specific point costs, and hope that the differences got swept into the the rounding.

Heavy armor proficiency in a class (including light and medium, but not shields) is worth 30 points, which is the same as 6 bonus feats. I'd say this is worth about 1 feat, maybe less.

Since armor proficiency (Heavy, light, medium) are each one feat, I'd count them each as a bonus feat.

I don't think illiteracy is worth -5; maybe -2 at best. +2 skill points per level is worth 15 poimts in this system, so over 20 levels that's 46/15 ~= 3 skill points per class point. Illiteracy takes 2 skill points to buy off, and most barbarians don't buy it off (so to them, it's worth less than 2 skill points).

Fair enough.

I think that the difference between "Good" and "Moderate" base attack is much greater than that between "Moderate" and "Poor". A monk with fighter BA is much better, but a sorcerer with monk BA isn't that much stronger.

This is where I had the most trouble finding a balance point. From one perspective BAB is simply a skill, albeit a frequently used one. So the points might go 2, 7, 10, 15 for the four categories. But every system ranks BAB even more highly than any skill, but how much dependes....
You also make a good point in that how much the BAB will be used depends upon other things, like hit points, bonus feats and class features. Some of the importance of a high BAB to a fighter-type class is reflected in the other class features.

I think that individual weapon and armor proficiencies are underrated. Consider a class proficient with only the bastard sword, spiked chain, and full plate....

Since exotic weapons are each a bonus feat, 5 points per?

I think the ability to summon a familiar is worth about 0 points. Some would have it equal to a feat, but in any case it's not worth 3 feats.

I'll recost is as a bonus feat.

The game designers have stated that the monk and paladin multiclass restrictions aren't a balance issue, they're flavor and can be ignored safely by individual DMs without regard harming the game. -10 is extreme in any case.

Finding all of these statemens is a difficult to impossible task. I'll recost this as well.

10 dice of sneak attack is worth more than 4 feats; I'd think it's closer to 10. WotC;s Unearthed Arcana has a martial rogue variant (p. 58) which gives up the 10 SA dice for 11 bonus feats, as well as a figher variant which does the reverse.

Unless you had pointed this out in official print, you would have a really hard time convincing me this was true.

In my experience, slow fall isn't as valuable as a single feat, let alone two.

Abundant step, perfect self, and diamond soul aren't worth 15 points in total, let alone individually.

Some of this falls into the over-generalization of abilities, and I may have missed re-costing this as I changed the cost of extraordary and supernatural abilities several times.

Abundant Step allows casting a 4th level spell. If the Sorcerer pays 10 points for this ability, so should the monk.

I'm concerned that there's nothing adjusting for the length of the class. 3-level prestige classes with the same number of points as 20-level classes would naturally be more powerful, assuming the requirements aren't particularly prohibitive. (Even then I'd wonder.)

Correct. The only costs which depend upon the number of class levels are BAB, Saves, Defense bounus and repuations bonus. If you only play to 5th level, does it really matter if the class has 5, 10, 15, or 20 levels? I decided the points for a BAB, saves, Defense and Repuation were based upon the rate of increase rather than the total final bonus.

Do you plan to do a comparison using the 3.5 versions of the classes?

I was pretty sure I was using the latest SRD for the classes, so they should be up to date.

 

[CRGreathouse]

(On the value of sneak attack dice vs. feats)

Unless you had pointed this out in official print, you would have a really hard time convincing me this was true.

I'll also point out that the Epic Level Handbook has an [Epic] feat Improved Sneak Attack that grants +1d6 sneak attack:
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicFeats.rtf

Some of this falls into the over-generalization of abilities, and I may have missed re-costing this as I changed the cost of extraordary and supernatural abilities several times.

Sure, it's understandable. I pointed these out in particular because you have the monk ranked above the other classes when in practice it's a little weak if anything.

Normally I'd gloss these things over, since they're essentially rounding errors -- but when they accumulate all in one class, it's worth noting.

Correct. The only costs which depend upon the number of class levels are BAB, Saves, Defense bounus and repuations bonus. If you only play to 5th level, does it really matter if the class has 5, 10, 15, or 20 levels? I decided the points for a BAB, saves, Defense and Repuation were based upon the rate of increase rather than the total final bonus.

Consider a 10-level prestige class identical to the first 10 levels of the fighter class. It doesn't have to pay for the last 5 bonus feats, which makes its point equivilent different -- but it's surely no worse, and arguably better. Some abilities come 'free' when you extend the levels (base attack, saves, Hit Dice), but others (bonus feats, special abilities) don't.

I was pretty sure I was using the latest SRD for the classes, so they should be up to date.

Your ranger has a d10 Hit Die (instead of a d8), 4 skill points per level (vs. 6), light, medium and heavy armor proficiency plus shields (vs. light armor and shields), no combat style, no Endurance, and none of the upper-level benefits of the revised ranger (swift tracker, evasion, camoflauge, and a limited HiPS). You don't have improvements for the paladin's smite evil. The monk has ki strike (supernatural) instead of ki strike (magic, lawful, and adamantine) -- you would rate this higher since it has two improvements, yes?

Also, you priced bardic music at 20 points, which is just right (IMO) for 3.0 but too expensive for 3.5, where it takes a standard action. 3.5 bards have more skill points than you give them and have free casting in light armor, which is unaccounted for.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

 

[Verequus]

I can't access the PDF - it doesn't seem to be in the download section itself. Could someone send me the file, please? jaluber AT gmx DOT de. Thanks in advance.

 

[tjoneslo]

(On the value of sneak attack dice vs. feats)

I'll also point out that the Epic Level Handbook has an [Epic] feat Improved Sneak Attack that grants +1d6 sneak attack.

Hrmm, that would make it worth 15 (for the epic level feat) plus 10 increases (15) or 30 points, about 6 feats worth. I'd be very reluctant to improve it past this level. I think the trade of 10 SA bonuses for 10 or 11 feats is an unbalanced one. Mostly because the selection general bonus feats are more powerful due to the flexability.

Consider a 10-level prestige class identical to the first 10 levels of the fighter class. It doesn't have to pay for the last 5 bonus feats, which makes its point equivilent different -- but it's surely no worse, and arguably better. Some abilities come 'free' when you extend the levels (base attack, saves, Hit Dice), but others (bonus feats, special abilities) don't.

Now I'm confused. Are you saying a 10 level prestige class should be worth more or less than a 20 level base class?
A 10 level class identical to the figher should be worth fewer points than the figher, it is less capable overall. The only way it could be the same or more is if some aspect (like BAB or Save) is worth more points simply because it is a shorter class. And I can't see that.

Your ranger has a d10 Hit Die (instead of a d8), 4 skill points per level (vs. 6), light, medium and heavy armor proficiency plus shields (vs. light armor and shields), no combat style, no Endurance, and none of the upper-level benefits of the revised ranger (swift tracker, evasion, camoflauge, and a limited HiPS). You don't have improvements for the paladin's smite evil. The monk has ki strike (supernatural) instead of ki strike (magic, lawful, and adamantine) -- you would rate this higher since it has two improvements, yes?

Also, you priced bardic music at 20 points, which is just right (IMO) for 3.0 but too expensive for 3.5, where it takes a standard action. 3.5 bards have more skill points than you give them and have free casting in light armor, which is unaccounted for.

Drat, I'll go check that again then. I've now got several updates to do.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I can't access the PDF - it doesn't seem to be in the download section itself. Could someone send me the file, please? jaluber AT gmx DOT de. Thanks in advance.

Sent.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hrmm, that would make it worth 15 (for the epic level feat) plus 10 increases (15) or 30 points, about 6 feats worth. I'd be very reluctant to improve it past this level. I think the trade of 10 SA bonuses for 10 or 11 feats is an unbalanced one. Mostly because the selection general bonus feats are more powerful due to the flexability.

I'd price them at 5 points each, personally. My only point was that they're more valuable than 2.5 points each.

Now I'm confused. Are you saying a 10 level prestige class should be worth more or less than a 20 level base class?
A 10 level class identical to the figher should be worth fewer points than the figher, it is less capable overall. The only way it could be the same or more is if some aspect (like BAB or Save) is worth more points simply because it is a shorter class. And I can't see that.

Perhaps I don't understand what the final number means, then. Consider a 10-level class similar to the fighter that grants a bonus feat at each level. This is worth 240 points under the current system, but it's clearly much more powerful than a typical class -- it's quite broken.

Taken to the extreme, consider a 1-level class that grants a d10 HD, full base attack, all good saves, and 20 bonus feats. This is a 250-point class, but it's obviously not on a par with other classes.

What are the numbers supposed to mean for classes of length other than 20? Can they only be compared to other classes of the same length?