D&D 4E Class-free 4E

[butwait]

Revinor, Moniker:
He explicitly forbids stacking bonus damage. Your builds are invalid.

Onto the system...
It's really cool. I like it.

One of the issues is that some of these features are linked to attributes that are not primary for the class. For example, Lay on Hands is WIS based. Wonderful for a WIS "cleric", less so for most other classes. Similarly with Brutal Scoundrel, better for "fighters" than "rogues"!

Your base hitpoints no longer include CON. Oops?

Some features with similar/identical bonuses should probably exclude each other, as with Fighter and Rogue Weapon Talent.


Absent feats (and other warlocks), Warlock's Curse is better than Hunter's Quarry. I don't think it's enough of a difference to matter, as I don't see anyone not wanting to or being unable to increase the Quarry dice.

On the topic of feats, some of the prereqs might want to be ignored, or altered. I'm not sure how I feel about obtaining cheap/free god based channel divinity powers. 2 points in CD feats might be a reasonable prereq.

Combat Challenge is superior to Divine Challenge in many ways. I think DC should be a 4, or CC a 6.

With 5 free points, an "Iron Mage" (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234559) build would make an excellent controller/defender. At will AoE multimarking with strong AC and high HP. He could even heal, if he wanted to.
Wiz Training: 1
Arcane Implement: 3
+5/2 HP: 2
Combat Challenge: 5
Light Armor: 1
Shields: 1

 

[Ambush Bug]

One of the issues is that some of these features are linked to attributes that are not primary for the class. For example, Lay on Hands is WIS based. Wonderful for a WIS "cleric", less so for most other classes. Similarly with Brutal Scoundrel, better for "fighters" than "rogues"!

I've found WIS to be surprisingly useful in a lot of builds. Weirdly enough, in 4E it seems that INT is the dump stat.

Your base hitpoints no longer include CON. Oops?

They do, and you still get bonus surges for your CON modifier. I didn't mention it specifically, but it's assumed. Consider it mentioned.

Some features with similar/identical bonuses should probably exclude each other, as with Fighter and Rogue Weapon Talent.

I haven't done enough testing to see if combining them will break the game, so I left them as-is. Unless something seems truly sick, like getting to combine the extra-damage features, my instinct is to not restrict it. Do you see any unsettling combos there?

On the topic of feats, some of the prereqs might want to be ignored, or altered. I'm not sure how I feel about obtaining cheap/free god based channel divinity powers. 2 points in CD feats might be a reasonable prereq.

Some feat prereqs would obviously need to change - for example, any class-specific feat would need different prereqs, like a relevant feature. I don't have a problem with easy access to Channel Divinity powers. I also don't have a problem with heavy restrictions on them. The role of gods in a campaign setting is something I handle on a case-by-case basis, and there isn't one default rule that fits the ways I like to play. That said, if you want some kind of restriction, the one you suggest seems sensible.

Combat Challenge is superior to Divine Challenge in many ways. I think DC should be a 4, or CC a 6.

How would you adjust the other feature costs to make sure that fighters and paladins balance each other again?

With 5 free points, an "Iron Mage" (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234559) build would make an excellent controller/defender. At will AoE multimarking with strong AC and high HP. He could even heal, if he wanted to.
Wiz Training: 1
Arcane Implement: 3
+5/2 HP: 2
Combat Challenge: 5
Light Armor: 1
Shields: 1

Neat build. I'd definitely play it.

 

[Ambush Bug]

Some classes have more than 6 healing surges, you need to put that in as well. Also, I'd like to see characters that don't automatically have proficiency with all simple weapons, and I'd like to see characters with proficiency in superior weapons.

I hadn't come up with a way to do that, short of assigning X points to the various weapon types and letting characters spend them, and pretty soon I was hip-deep in math. Which is fine for some things - I love the HERO system, which is all about being hip-deep in math - but I'm trying to keep this streamlined. Any suggestions on how to achieve both of these design goals at the same time?

 

[SSquirrel]

Some classes have more than 6 healing surges, you need to put that in as well. Also, I'd like to see characters that don't automatically have proficiency with all simple weapons, and I'd like to see characters with proficiency in superior weapons.

I think a character w/o access to even simple weapons is just a bad idea. Even monks have access to simple weapons, even if they don't really use them. The simple weapons are the most absolute basic weapons there are. These are the weapons that have very little strategy to them (and generally not much damage either). Many of them are also easily found in common society, like on a farm.

If you intend to limit a character to a single weapon ala Magisters in Arcana Evolved, that would be fine, but it would need to be included in the basic class aspect you buy, ie cp:5 Magister Staff and such - You can cast spells as a Magister and gain proficiency in Staff.

 

[amnuxoll]

I like this approach very much. I think that the ability scores will usually force players to focus mostly on powers from a particular class, but that the freedom to go elsewhere is, well, a really nice perk.

 

[Cwheeler]

Nice! this is the best attempt at a classles 4e that I've seen so far . how does it go with constructing the existing PC classes?

 

[jonathanjacobs]

This is great! Without any knowledge of this thread I started a similar discussion over on my blog yesterday. Thanks for fellow blogger Ben for pointing me here. Now... I'll read the whole thread to catch up.

 

[sidonunspa]

So,

Once we have this finalized I can work it into a PDF if you would like )

Peter B

 

[Ambush Bug]

Nice! this is the best attempt at a classles 4e that I've seen so far . how does it go with constructing the existing PC classes?

Thanks! I was hoping someone besides me wanted a classless D&D system. Glad you like it.

This version was constructed specifically so you could create the PHB classes as nearly as possible. Rogues and wizards will have slightly different weapon selections, and the archery-style ranger will be short 1 CP worth of abilities. Otherwise, I think it all adds up. I guess that you don't have class-based restrictions on your skills, but I never liked 'em anyway.

 

[Ambush Bug]

Some classes have more than 6 healing surges, you need to put that in as well.

I meant to answer this before. The extra healing surges are accounted for by the Healing and Marking class features.

As a side note, this was one of my biggest frustrations. I wanted to divorce healing surges from any other mechanic, so you could make a character with 2 or 20 or whatever, just by spending points. But every time I did that, it became impossible to balance fighters and paladins with other classes. So I compromised by linking surges to certain class features. I think it works, but I'm annoyed at myself for not thinking of a better solution.