Class revisions

[Merlion]

They say they are going to clarify bardic music, and expand it. But most of the abilities that have some sort of effect on non allies such as Fascinate and Countersong are based on a perform check. Ranks just determine what abilities you can use.

 

[Pickaxe]

In discussions that I've had with other players, only the druid never came up as needing fixing. Actually, I should clarify that to say that animal companion kept druids from needing fixing, which perhaps is something to fix. It isn't always fun to only be appreciated because you brought your brown bear to the fight, rather than for your own abilities.

It seemed that the real problem with the ranger was the fact that its abilities were front-loaded. A fix I use in my campaign is to give the ranger points at each level that he can spend on attack, damage, and the specific skills for each favored enemy. The ranger gets higher bonuses earlier, but they have a +5 max cap. The nice thing about that is that you get the bonuses when you're still fighting your early favored enemies.

Bard and monk I think really do need a fix. I'm sure some players will find some value in them, but I keep thinking that it's better to be something else than a monk or a bard. Bards are pitched as jacks of all trades, but that doesn't seem to me to be a great thing for a character in a party. Both monks and bards need something that makes them stand out as having unique value to a party.

Anyway, that's how I feel.

--Axe

 

[Eldorian]

What I'd most like to see is the Druid taken away from the shapeshifting path and given domains based on terrain, but since that's not possible, perhaps a major spell list revision, to flesh out less than competetive selection. The bard is a very good class... If you multiclass to a warrior type. As it stands, the class by itself is pretty weak, perhaps better bardic abilites tied to bard level, and some more spells per day. The spell list is pretty decent I think. The monk only needs more ki strike, and perhaps more customizablity. Better rules for unarmed attacks would be appriciated too, and perhaps the ability to use a monk weapon with monk damage. The ranger needs a complete overhall, and I am unsure of what exactly it neads. Definatly more power later in levels, less in the earlier ones. The paladin needs his abilites to increase with level, and some higher level abilites, and perhaps a mount that has something like 3/4 his challege rating.

All that said, I believe the Druid needs the most work. The better the point-buy and the better the magic item selection, the weaker the Druid gets compared to the other PCs. This is because wildshape does not take advantage of superior physical stats, nor does it use the majority of magic items.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Steverooo]

Hey all. I want to get some opnions on some things. We know that 3.5 is going to alter the Ranger Druid Bard and Monk classes. We all(or at least many of us) know the ranger needs work..and most of us probably largely agree on what he needs. Of the other three classes I'd like peoples opnions on what they thinked should be changed, AND what they think WILL be changed.

Thanks

What we know: Rangers and Bards will get more skill points (How many?). Rangers, Druids, and Bards will have their spell lists tweaked. Druids will get some more damaging spells. ALL spell lists will be tweaked, and some spells will change levels.

What I'd like to see: All classes get "Bonus Ranks" in some Knowledge and Profession skills, each level, and perhaps bonus ranks in a more useful skill every other level. Since these are "Bonus Ranks", they are still limited to Level+3, maximum. The Druid and Barbarian could thus get Knowledge (Nature), the Druid Profession (Herbalist), ant the Barbarian something else. The Mage could get a Knowledge skill (Arcana, probably), and Craft (Alchemy).

All classes should get one Bonus Feat/5 levels, just like Wizards do now, but from a select list, like Fighters and Wizards have, now. Many of these Feats should be Class-only, and add more to flavor than power. (As an example, Druids/Rangers could select a Feat to improve Animal Empathy by four, or add Magical Beasts to the types affected, or add +2 to BOTH Animal Empathy AND Handle Animals, etc.)

For Druids, I see no real problems. Give them some better spells, and leave well enough alone. I would make them Masters (or Mistresses) of The Elements, though. No one should have better Fire (Air, Earth, Water) spells than the Druid.

For Bards, 6 skill points/level, and tweak the spells, then add some more and better Bardic Music.

For Rangers, 6 skill points/level, add a few needed skills (Balance and Knowledge (Geography) spring to mind), get rid of the "Virtual Feats" and allow a selection, instead, ADD SOME FLAVORFUL CLASS ABILITIES, add the spells they should have had (Endure Elements springs to mind, and was already mentioned, Barkskin is another), expand the list (shillelagh and flameblade would be nice, as are all of the "Animal-Named" spells: Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom - give those to Druids, too!) Also, for those who think Rangers shouldn't have spells, allow them a "Trade-it-Away" option! What I do is have Ranger-only Bonus Feats that allow trading a spell slot of a specific level in return for a permanent, weak ability... "Beast-Mastery", for instance, allow him to trade one first level spell slot for the permanent ability to Speak with Animals at will. Kinda neat (expecially for a player who likes that... uh... show which shall remain nameless).

Other than the above, Paladins and Monks I wouldn't fiddle with. I have no problems with more Smites, though.

Barbarians, on the other hand, have had their primary abilities taken away! Originally, Barbarians were haters of magic (the arcane kind, that is), gradually lost the INability to associate with magic-users and use magic items, and had the equivalent of DR-bypassing. Adding back those abilities (and ESPECIALLY the restrictions!) would cut back on PCs wanting to multiclass as Barbs!

 

[Li Shenron]

1) What should be done about Bards, Druids, Monks, Rangers?

Except for Monks, I have seen them all played both single-class and multi-class, and never had a balance problem in any case yet. A little annoying has been only a Ranger(1)/Fighter(rest), and in fact the front-loadedness of the Ranger is universally acknowledged.

Flexibility-wise it seems to me that Monks are more rigid than any other class, so that every Monk at level X in the world has exactly the same class features, which are all quite specific to use.

Flavor-wise they are all ok IMHO. Skills and Feats are already enough to make the Ranger a great archer, a great woodsman, or a great something else, especially combined with the currently very nature-oriented spells. There are approximately as many Ranger variants arounds as there are D&D players, and I think there will still be as many after the revision: to fulfill everybody's stereotype, the only way would be to turn the Ranger's current features into Feats and play a Fighter.

2) What will be done about Bards, Druids, Monks, Rangers?

AFAIK...

Bards will get 6 skill points/level instead of 4 and more available bardic music abilities.

Druids will have the weapon/armor restriction loosen, if not totally removed.

Monks are said to be made more flexible (but I guess it means they just use the OA version, which is minimally more flexible IIRC) and won't have multiclassing restrictions anymore.

Rangers will be the only seriously changed class: bonus feats will be moved to higher levels and more than one "feats path" alternative will be available. Everything else (except BAB) may be changed, but it is not yet clear what and how.

Possibly every spell list in the PHB will be "tweaked", which means some spells may change level and may be copied from other lists, and of course few "new" spells will be incorporated from WotC splatbooks. I don't expect more critical changes to them.

 

[Pax]

Paladin
Sacred Cow status aside, Paladin should have beena Prestige Class. It would have made an excellent PHB "example" of the concept.
That said, I'd also like to see Paladins have a few Domains of their own; not the same ones as clerics, but related to the various sorts of special areas Paladins might focus on (anti-Undead; Battle in general; Healing; etc).
Spellcasting sooner, perhaps with the (3.0) Bard progression. Maybe a spontaneous divine caster, even -- with spells known identical to the current Bard mechanic, too!. Well, slightly reduced or offset by a couple levels, of course.

Bard
This class needs options to make it viable when operatin solo; currently, a Bard alone ... is a dead bard. Yes, they can shine in a support role, but not everyone wants to playa sidekick.
Offensive music of some sort would be nice.
Sonic-tagged combat spells, IMO, would be a perfect way to improve the Bard's spell list. Not as good overall as a Wizard when it comes to blasting,b ut a decent second-stringer in that department, with a few Bard-only special effects.

Sorceror
Better skill list -- an absolute must!!
Some rules for specialised Sorcerors (like my house rule, KNOW an extra spell of each spell level, for the same opposition school effects as a wizard-specialist).
Perhaps rules for (difficult) ways to swap out old spells for newer ones. Otherwise, the class is fine IMO.

Ranger
One of the Revision articles mentioned Rangers, and heavily implied there would be multiple "types", archer being one. GOOD.
The class, by and large, needs to be a lot less front-loaded.
I also think it'd be fun if the Ranger could spontaneous cast druid-themed divine spells (with their own list), also with mroe spells, sooner. Current BArd list of spells per day would work IMO, slightly reduced or offset by a couple levels, ofc.

Monk
This class is in a sad state, currently.
It needs to have more options; more core feats designed for monks, bonus feats like a fighter (but from a monk-specific list).
Make each power -- moving faster, handling falls, etc -- a special Monk-only feat/ability, that you choose from as you level up.
Ki strike, if not made a (frequently) selectable ability, needs to be +1 per 4 levels. THAT would do quite nicely, actually.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wish people could get it into their heads that RANGERS ARE NO MORE FRONT LOADED THAN ANY OTHER CLASS!

Sorry, I just had to shout there, since saying it in bold and italics it evidently hasn't caught on!

It is no more frontloaded than Barbarian (fast movement and rage!), monk (evasion!), sorcerer (6x1st level spells a day!), paladin (cha bonus to saves!), cleric (healing magic and domain powers!), wizard (scrolls, use wands etc!), rogues (sneak attack!).

Look at it carefully. Almost every class gives a decent benefit for taking one level in the class.

Check again, and you will see that the Ranger is one of the only classes which doesn't give you any special benefit for taking level 2... *that* is a major drawback to the ranger... no "pull" into the higher levels.

Steverooo has it right - the ranger needs flavourful class abilities (which would end in one stroke the complaints that "a better ranger can be made through multiclassing"). They need to have a uniqueness restored to them.

- and what is the problem with Monks? Each monk can choose to spend his skill points differently, each can choose different feats... one might take PowerAttack/Sunder/Cleave and have lots of fun. Another might go Expertise/ImprovedDisarm or Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack/ ..(Expertise/Whirlwind Attack)

Yet another might go PointBlank/RapidShot/PreciseShot and aim for Assassin so he can lob lots of poisoned shuriken about...

Class abilities are basically static things, the same across all classes. The monk has more class abilities than any other class (it is his "schtick") but that doesn't limit what he does with other feats or skills, now does it? And that isn't even considering magic items which get thrown into the mix. I don't really see the monk problem (apart from the silly multiclass restriction which they ought to throw away)

Cheers

 

[Pax]

I wish people could get it into their heads that RANGERS ARE NO MORE FRONT LOADED THAN ANY OTHER CLASS!

BULL.

I've been running an Arena-style game for less than a week now, and MULTIPLE people have commented on "taking one level of ranger for the two-weapon thing" -- IOW, for MOST people, one level of ranger is sufficient.

That's the DEFINITION of front-loaded.

A lot of the Ranger's "schtick" abilities come right there, at first leel -- track, free ambidex/two-weapon in light armor, and hte first favored enemy.

Sorry, I just had to shout there, since saying it in bold and italics it evidently hasn't caught on!

How about, it hasn't caught on because it's not the truth?

It is no more frontloaded than Barbarian (fast movement and rage!), monk (evasion!), sorcerer (6x1st level spells a day!), paladin (cha bonus to saves!), cleric (healing magic and domain powers!), wizard (scrolls, use wands etc!), rogues (sneak attack!).

Barbarians have to wait for uncanny dodge, Greater Rage, and damage reduction.

Monks have to wait for Slow Fall, Deflect arrows, Improved Trip, Still mind, gods, LOADS of stuff.

Sorcerors have to wait for 2d level spells, 3d level spells, 4th level spells, etc. Ditto for Wizards. Dittofor Clerics.

Rogues have to wait for higher Sneak Attack levels, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and their higher-level Special Abilities.

What do rangers wait for? A little bit of spellcasting, and some new favored enemies. They get all THREE feats <b>right up front</b> ... then nothing.

They need more down the road, paid for by a BIT less up front.

Look at it carefully. Almost every class gives a decent benefit for taking one level in the class.

And the majority of them reward you equally as much for takign a SECOND level in that class.

Ranger doesn't.

Check again, and you will see that the Ranger is one of the only classes which doesn't give you any special benefit for taking level 2... *that* is a major drawback to the ranger... no "pull" into the higher levels.

Um, DUH. That's what "front loaded" means. Not "overpowered" but "everything up front, nothing to look forward to" ...

- and what is the problem with Monks? Each monk can choose to spend his skill points differently, each can choose different feats... one might take PowerAttack/Sunder/Cleave and have lots of fun. Another might go Expertise/ImprovedDisarm or Dodge/Mobility/SpringAttack/ ..(Expertise/Whirlwind Attack)

How about -- why do ALL monks learn Improved Trip at 2d level for free? Why can't mind learn Improved Disarm instead?

Why do ALL monks learn Deflect Arrows at 4th ... why can't MINE learn Improved Initiative instead?

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Paladin
Sacred Cow status aside, Paladin should have beena Prestige Class. It would have made an excellent PHB "example" of the concept.

Was thinking almost the same thing... Maybe the Paladin class could be transformed into the Champion class... Get rid of the alignment restriction. Take example on the Divine Champion prestige class in FRCS. Or make it a prestige class, like Pax said.

Maitre D

 

[melkoriii]

I think one of the main reasons they are revising the Druid is that in 3.5 Beasts will be changed to Animals or Magical Beasts so the Druid will have a much bigger range to change into.