Class substitution levels

[AllisterH]

While there has been talks about the new base classes and the pros and cons, I was wondering what people think of the substitution level concept as seen in PHB II and in newer products.

Do you allow them on a case by case basis or do you consider them equivalent to say picking a regular barbarian and not something you have to watch out for. Do you allow multiple switches in abilities or only one?

 

[shilsen]

I'd allow them on a case by case basis (hasn't come up, since nobody's taken one) and would allow multiple switches (if they were all ones I was allowing).

 

[theredrobedwizard]

My only restriction is that if they take one Racial Substitution Level, they have to take them all. For example, the Dwarven Fighter Substitution level is available at 1st, 2nd, and 4th, I believe. A dwarf fighter couldn't take the 1st level, skip the second, and then take the 4th.

Of course, if he took the first level then multiclassed into something else, that's fine.

As far as the Alternate Class Abilities presented in the PHBII (remember, big difference between RSLs and ACAs), I believe there haven't been any that I won't allow.

Just remember (especially for Rogues, who get two abilities that can potentially take the place of the extra-lame Trapsense) that you can only get 1 alternate of the same class feature.

-TRRW

 

[blargney the second]

I love them! More customizability = more better.
-blarg

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I, too, prefer flexibility over restriction.

It hasn't come up yet, but I'd at least consider allowing them on a case by case basis...just like any other class.

 

[joshjurg]

I can say that I have used several of the alternate class features :
Abrupt Jaunt : phbII - conjurers specialists - Saved my conjurer numerous times
Shapeshift : phbII - druid - made making a half orc druid extremely believeable
Charging smite : phbII - this is the only one I see potential for a LOT of abuse

I will be starting a campaign wednesday with a swashbuckler with
Ring of blades: phb II
& Arcane stunt :complete mage

My experience with the alternate class abiliities have been nothing but positive

 

[Wish]

There's only, so far as I can tell, one alternate class feature that's a complete "automatic" choice.

Spontaneous Domain Casting is a no-brainer for any cleric with the Healing domain. Of course, most people consider Healing domain to one of the worst domains possible, so maybe that's not a problem.

 

[irdeggman]

I love the racial substitution levels. They add a great deal to the "flavor" of the character (and you are not required to take them all).

I have only used (or had player's use) the class substitution levels (from PHB II and other sources - like dragon magazine) - but seeing as how well they work with racial subtituion levels I wouldn't have a problem. They all involve giving up something and exchanging it for something else - the thing to watch for is the subtle changes like hit dice, skill points and class skills that are only applicable to the subtitution levels.

 

[Shazman]

Some of them are no brainers. They are really fixes to some of the weaker features of classes. For example, a ranger's animal companion or a arcane caster's familiar are so weak as to be liabilities, so they replaced them with distracting attack and quicker use of metamagic feats. The same with the hexblade. The class was cool, but was too weak, so they replace familiar with the phantom companion (or whatever it's called). A druid's wildshape was too difficult to adjudicate because of the wonkiness of polymorph. so they replaced it with the shapeshifting class feature. They are basically fixes in disguise. Instead of a major rules overhaul brought about by changing editions, they are making fixes one step at a time. This is why 4E isn't out yet.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Just remember (especially for Rogues, who get two abilities that can potentially take the place of the extra-lame Trapsense) that you can only get 1 alternate of the same class feature.

Where are the rogue substitution levels located (what page if they are in the PHBII)?