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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DMZ2112" data-source="post: 6206311" data-attributes="member: 78752">This conversation is so fascinating!I don't see the mechanical difference between a +2 to save from a spell and +2 to save from an innate ability, but thematically, one is the result of a pact with a deity wherein the deity agrees to meet the requirements of the supplicant on an as-needed basis in exchange for relatively minor devotions, while the latter is the result of a pact with a deity wherein the deity agrees to meet the requirements of the supplicant on a permanent, ongoing basis in exchange for substantial devotions.I am proposing mechanical differentiation, because I don't feel the thematic differences between cleric and paladin are, or could ever be, sufficient to warrant two separate archetypes.I think where I may have confused the issue is in saying that the differences between the cleric and paladin are largely thematic.  What I did not specify is that I feel what differences there are are minute, and poorly served by what is essentially the same mechanical approach.What it really comes down to, for me, is the spell list.  If the paladin is what the paladin is supposed to be, he oughtn't use spells.  That ought to be the difference between the cleric and the paladin, it seems to me.</blockquote>