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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8057271" data-attributes="member: 6750235">That's still moving the goal posts from having out of combat options to having several or stronger out of combat options.A fighter of any sort can do quite a bit with athletics, STR, and gear.  It's not flashy but it is effective.  Or go DEX for different synergy.Aside from reliable talent, a PDK isn't any different than a thief taking expertise in persuasion but is more effective in combat, but if you don't like PDK then make the samurai because it also gives social abilities as we both said.  That's the point: subclasses add those options.PDK doesn't actually suck either.  It grants healing, attacks, and extra saves as bonuses using standard fighter abilities.  My guess is you looked at it, knee-jerk reacted because it's still not a 4e warlord, and didn't give a real chance playing one.  ;-)It doesn't have the additional offensive abilities beyond inspiring surge, which gets back to my other point that as soon as the choice is an alternative to damage then damage becomes the priority regardless if the desire for other options.  That's a player mentality more than an issue with the options. As for feats, they are a trade off.  Skilled, prodgy, magic adept, or ritual caster gives the same abilities that get called out for being good (extra proficiencies, expertise, guidance, rituals) so it's a bit of a double standard to call them out as good on another class but not a fighter.Keeping on point, fighter subclasses do offer additional out of combat support, feats are a option for out of combat support, fighters have the same options available to all classes, and just because another class has the same or similar opportunities doesn't create a condition where the fighter PC no longer has the options given.Cheers.  ;-)</blockquote>

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