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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8060874" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>[USER=6750235]@Ashrym[/USER] </p><p></p><p>I'm not quoting you because then I'd be tempted to go with specific responses instead of a general thoughts.</p><p></p><p>First, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about how things will work. Like saying that prof+mod is going to be enough, so you don't need expertise, which makes me wonder what you think the point of expertise is? Or, when you mentioned that fighter's have strength and equipment. I'm not sure what you are imagining, but Strength pretty much never comes up outside of combat in my experience unless it is breaking doors or you are doing menial labor. Neither of which is really a social encounter. As for equipment... anybody can buy equipment. If that is a metric of measurement it goes equally to every class. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Secondly, DnD has a problem with omni-competent characters. As in, it is nearly impossible to build one without rolling. A fighter needs Strength to wear heavy armor, they generally want high con to survive in a fight, they want Dex for initiative, stealth and saves, they want Wisdom for perception and saves. And to get a 16 CHA with point buy means it is likely one of your highest scores. </p><p></p><p>And, that is where the problem with your "if you want to be a social character" assertion comes in. </p><p></p><p>Combat is 1/3 of the game, and everyone can and does participate in it. There is no class that is actively bad at combat if you put your primary score as your highest. </p><p></p><p>Exploration is 1/3 of the game, and it can be tackled with items, clever plans, and multiple scores. Strength and Con can actually be very useful here. There are spells designed for this. And generally, everyone participates on generally equal footing.</p><p></p><p>Social is 1/3 of the game, and you have to actively invest in it. Specifically in Charisma and the associated skills, as well as Insight. No other skills, items, tools, or anything else really applies without GM Fiat. Even spells are of extremely limited use. And if you don't invest in it, you don't participate. </p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no way to not participate in combat or exploration. "There is a chasm stretching in front of you, how do you get across" affects the entire party. Even if they don't have the solution, they have to think about how they are getting across and are engaged. Just Social is opt-in. If you do not specifically build to include it, usually at the detriment of other things you want to accomplish, then you just do not engage with a third of the game.</p><p></p><p>It is weird when you look at it like that. As essentially an optional part of the game, and when you are building your character you have no idea if it will be included or how you might end up interacting with it. I know there are likely to be hidden enemies, or clues. So Perception and Wisdom are needed. I know there are going to be times when we need to be fast or sneaky, so Dexterity and stealth are needed. Constitution keeps me alive. </p><p></p><p>But I don't know how important Charisma, persuasion, deception and intimidation will be. They can range from non-factors to vitally important. And simply talking to your DM won't tell you much, because the game can veer into needing social skills very quickly and with little warning. And you only get to build your character once.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8060874, member: 6801228"] [USER=6750235]@Ashrym[/USER] I'm not quoting you because then I'd be tempted to go with specific responses instead of a general thoughts. First, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about how things will work. Like saying that prof+mod is going to be enough, so you don't need expertise, which makes me wonder what you think the point of expertise is? Or, when you mentioned that fighter's have strength and equipment. I'm not sure what you are imagining, but Strength pretty much never comes up outside of combat in my experience unless it is breaking doors or you are doing menial labor. Neither of which is really a social encounter. As for equipment... anybody can buy equipment. If that is a metric of measurement it goes equally to every class. Secondly, DnD has a problem with omni-competent characters. As in, it is nearly impossible to build one without rolling. A fighter needs Strength to wear heavy armor, they generally want high con to survive in a fight, they want Dex for initiative, stealth and saves, they want Wisdom for perception and saves. And to get a 16 CHA with point buy means it is likely one of your highest scores. And, that is where the problem with your "if you want to be a social character" assertion comes in. Combat is 1/3 of the game, and everyone can and does participate in it. There is no class that is actively bad at combat if you put your primary score as your highest. Exploration is 1/3 of the game, and it can be tackled with items, clever plans, and multiple scores. Strength and Con can actually be very useful here. There are spells designed for this. And generally, everyone participates on generally equal footing. Social is 1/3 of the game, and you have to actively invest in it. Specifically in Charisma and the associated skills, as well as Insight. No other skills, items, tools, or anything else really applies without GM Fiat. Even spells are of extremely limited use. And if you don't invest in it, you don't participate. There is no way to not participate in combat or exploration. "There is a chasm stretching in front of you, how do you get across" affects the entire party. Even if they don't have the solution, they have to think about how they are getting across and are engaged. Just Social is opt-in. If you do not specifically build to include it, usually at the detriment of other things you want to accomplish, then you just do not engage with a third of the game. It is weird when you look at it like that. As essentially an optional part of the game, and when you are building your character you have no idea if it will be included or how you might end up interacting with it. I know there are likely to be hidden enemies, or clues. So Perception and Wisdom are needed. I know there are going to be times when we need to be fast or sneaky, so Dexterity and stealth are needed. Constitution keeps me alive. But I don't know how important Charisma, persuasion, deception and intimidation will be. They can range from non-factors to vitally important. And simply talking to your DM won't tell you much, because the game can veer into needing social skills very quickly and with little warning. And you only get to build your character once. [/QUOTE]
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