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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8065443" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Those aren't my assumptions. Those are the assumptions given in the game where easy is described as 10 DC, moderate is described as 15 DC, and hard is described as 20 DC. </p><p></p><p>A +9 bonus from a combination of ability score and proficiency is plenty, and very high looking through the MM or adventure books.</p><p></p><p>The base mechanic is d20 plus ability modifier getting back to the premise that checks are inclusive for any PC to use.</p><p></p><p>Expertise is the exception, not the expectation, because it's a class feature rarely given out. It can be used for even higher DC's that rarely occur or offset lack of an ability modifier.</p><p></p><p>Just because expertise can exist doesn't increase DC's. Flat DC's almost never exceed 20 and opposed checks usually don't include proficiency let alone expertise. </p><p></p><p>It's the overkill/overhead principle applied to ability checks. It doesn't matter how much a PC exceeds 15 DC checks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Strength and athletics were meant to be applied to exploration checks. You rarely climb or open stuck doors? Jumping? Swimming? Breaking objects?</p><p></p><p>Applying strength to intimidation under alternate ability scores would apply to social, however.</p><p></p><p>If the PC isn't using strength that's on the player for not trying actions that would use it and/or the DM for not applying it. 5e is very open-ended in that aspect. Granted, that has it's the end drawbacks but it's limited more by imagination than hard lists.</p><p></p><p>Equipment would be climbing kits, crowbars, and vials of acid as examples. Other classes using them too is irrelevant. It's an option fighters have. Options only for fighters would be moving the goal posts from having options to having exclusive options.</p><p></p><p>Social equipment includes gaming kits, musical instruments, and other artisan tools. These are ways in to build contacts for those favor checks or directly curry friendly attitudes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. 16 strength or dexterity, 16 charisma, 14 constitution, and 12 wisdom. Or take the 14 Charisma instead and add an ASI later.</p><p></p><p>That's a half-elf so easy enough for point buy and extra skill proficiencies.</p><p></p><p>I don't need strength and dexterity on most typical fighter builds. Either / or works. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How does that assertion demonstrate a fighter is bad at combat by learning social abilities?</p><p></p><p>A 14 or 16 charisma does not preclude strength or dexterity. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So being on equal footing means fighters aren't struggling here either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then invest in it.</p><p></p><p>The issue here is roleplaying is active participation while those skills are the mechanical support that impacts that participation. It's not a lack of participation but a perception of a lack of support.</p><p></p><p>It's not "DM fiat", however. 5e's system is open-ended and that requires DM ruling. Let me I said above, good in some ways and not others.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>The bolded part is where I think you are making a mistake. Those are predominantly initiated by an action of the PC. I take actions based on what I expect from my characters. A DM would have to take direct control of my character to somehow prevent that. </p><p></p><p>It doesn't matter if what I do automatically succeeds, or fails, or requires a check. I build to my concept and play to that concept. </p><p></p><p>If social abilities aren't prominent then session 0 should let's me know anyway. It's moot if I don't have to take abilities I won't need or use anyway.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 8065443, member: 6750235"] Those aren't my assumptions. Those are the assumptions given in the game where easy is described as 10 DC, moderate is described as 15 DC, and hard is described as 20 DC. A +9 bonus from a combination of ability score and proficiency is plenty, and very high looking through the MM or adventure books. The base mechanic is d20 plus ability modifier getting back to the premise that checks are inclusive for any PC to use. Expertise is the exception, not the expectation, because it's a class feature rarely given out. It can be used for even higher DC's that rarely occur or offset lack of an ability modifier. Just because expertise can exist doesn't increase DC's. Flat DC's almost never exceed 20 and opposed checks usually don't include proficiency let alone expertise. It's the overkill/overhead principle applied to ability checks. It doesn't matter how much a PC exceeds 15 DC checks. Strength and athletics were meant to be applied to exploration checks. You rarely climb or open stuck doors? Jumping? Swimming? Breaking objects? Applying strength to intimidation under alternate ability scores would apply to social, however. If the PC isn't using strength that's on the player for not trying actions that would use it and/or the DM for not applying it. 5e is very open-ended in that aspect. Granted, that has it's the end drawbacks but it's limited more by imagination than hard lists. Equipment would be climbing kits, crowbars, and vials of acid as examples. Other classes using them too is irrelevant. It's an option fighters have. Options only for fighters would be moving the goal posts from having options to having exclusive options. Social equipment includes gaming kits, musical instruments, and other artisan tools. These are ways in to build contacts for those favor checks or directly curry friendly attitudes. Yes. 16 strength or dexterity, 16 charisma, 14 constitution, and 12 wisdom. Or take the 14 Charisma instead and add an ASI later. That's a half-elf so easy enough for point buy and extra skill proficiencies. I don't need strength and dexterity on most typical fighter builds. Either / or works. How does that assertion demonstrate a fighter is bad at combat by learning social abilities? A 14 or 16 charisma does not preclude strength or dexterity. So being on equal footing means fighters aren't struggling here either. Then invest in it. The issue here is roleplaying is active participation while those skills are the mechanical support that impacts that participation. It's not a lack of participation but a perception of a lack of support. It's not "DM fiat", however. 5e's system is open-ended and that requires DM ruling. Let me I said above, good in some ways and not others. The bolded part is where I think you are making a mistake. Those are predominantly initiated by an action of the PC. I take actions based on what I expect from my characters. A DM would have to take direct control of my character to somehow prevent that. It doesn't matter if what I do automatically succeeds, or fails, or requires a check. I build to my concept and play to that concept. If social abilities aren't prominent then session 0 should let's me know anyway. It's moot if I don't have to take abilities I won't need or use anyway. [/QUOTE]
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