Clearing the air about PCGen Data Files
- Thread starter Twin Rose
- Start date
soulcatcher said:
That certainly wouldn't apply to using any CMP datasets in another program.
CMP (I think it was Mynex) stated on their web-site that people are not paying twice for their RPG material (once for the books, and again for a CMP dataset) - which is a very common complaint about the datasets being charged for.
CMP have stated that the charge for the datasets is to pay for the efforts of people to enter the data, and do the testing etc.
That being the case, there should be no problem with being able to use the datasets in other programs (such as RolePlayingMaster and CS).
If you pay for the data, it certainly makes sense to be able to use it as best fits your needs. The efforts of the people who did the work is actually further rewarded by extra sales to RPG customers that use other programs.
However there is a background to the whole story that may make the issue less clear.
CMP have been licensed by Wizards to charge for the datasets. It may be that Wizards have stipulated that the licensed data was only to be usable in PCGen and ETools. If that is the case, then CMP may have a duty to try and enforce that.
Certainly CMP helped rescue a virtually dead ETools (big problems, with no budget to fix them). For that, Wizards gave a few PCGen founders the right to make money off datasets for PCGEN and ETools.
So, unless you actually get to see the agreement between CMP and Wizards, you don't really get to find out whether CMP have little choice, or whether they're trying to force people to use Etools or PCGEN.
I haven't personally imported anything from PCGEN for use in RolePlayingMaster, and the RolePlayingMaster community that has created many datasets hasn't either (far as I'm aware). Nevertheless, I wouldn't agree with any claims that its unfair to use datasets that are made freely available (like PCGEN) in other programs.
Surely the point of creating a freely available dataset under open source is to benefit the wider RPG community? Why would somebody get upset because you didn't use the same program as them?
If members of the RPG community find that they get better use out of a different program, or that ETools/PCGEN are just unsuitable - then wouldn't we all want them to get the best possible outcome for enjoying their roleplaying?
I guess I could have a problem if a different program used other programs datasets, and then made a surcharge on it for themselves.
My personal philosophy with RolePlayingMaster is that people only pay when (if) they register the basic program. From that point on everything is provided for free. Registration money allows me to pay for on-going development and new features in the program (like advanced wordprocessing, tree interfaces and powerful grid components). From what I can see, people are quite happy to pay once for a small up-front shareware registration, and then continually reap the benefits of a constantly improving program.
If other people/publishers want to create RolePlayingmaster datasets, adventures, or other resource material; and then charge for it - good luck to them!
Regards,
Luke
Someone made a transformer for the PCGen XML files to work in Campaign Suite? :? Complete news to me. I dind't think such a thing was even remotely possible despite formats. The programs work differently and I can't imagine they would talk to the same file (aside from maybe statblock text) and work with them.
If that's the case, though and someone created a way to import PCGen files into CS, then how does that make CS a vulture-like company? Even if your opinion is that pay-for software companies are vultures, then how can you have a problem with any of the DnD programs out there? They aren't expensive. I think they are all around $30, which is simply cheap. You can input every DnD book into CS.
Sincerely,
V
If that's the case, though and someone created a way to import PCGen files into CS, then how does that make CS a vulture-like company? Even if your opinion is that pay-for software companies are vultures, then how can you have a problem with any of the DnD programs out there? They aren't expensive. I think they are all around $30, which is simply cheap. You can input every DnD book into CS.
Sincerely,
V
Veander said:
I've looked at the Twin Rose XML data, and it doesn't look like it came from PCGen data...
On another note, it's an intriguing format (seems suited to XPath, with heavy use of attributes), but I'll be looking to transform it into something less engine-centric (there are "TypeNum" codes and such...).
Too bad the d20XML people couldn't settle on a standard...
Andargor
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dvvega
Explorer
The most obvious reason why d20XML couldn't come to an agreement is that there are two schools of thought about XML files for d20.
1) Store final data only
Store your character as it will appear on the printed sheet. Nothing more. Don't take into account the modifiers, or statistics that make up that character.
2) Store the data methods
Store the character in a way that allows you to take that file and generate that character with ANY program that understands the XML structure defined.
Both methods have their PROs and CONs.
(1) wins if all programs will ever do is to display your character on-screen
PRO: simple transferrable character information
CON: who really wants just a character display program?
(2) wins if you want the programs to take your character and manipulate its stats/abilities accurately.
PRO: anyone can pick up the file and mimic d20 rules enough to handle that specific character.
CON: the format MUST be clever enough to explain the d20 rules involved in the calculations so that you don't have to program a lot of logic except to read the XML file and understand it.
What Twin Rose and PCGen are discussing (if my understanding is correct) is (1). Data that is transferrable between their respective programs. No one will be able to pick up a character file from Twin Rose and understand the d20 ruleset behind that character.
1) Store final data only
Store your character as it will appear on the printed sheet. Nothing more. Don't take into account the modifiers, or statistics that make up that character.
2) Store the data methods
Store the character in a way that allows you to take that file and generate that character with ANY program that understands the XML structure defined.
Both methods have their PROs and CONs.
(1) wins if all programs will ever do is to display your character on-screen
PRO: simple transferrable character information
CON: who really wants just a character display program?
(2) wins if you want the programs to take your character and manipulate its stats/abilities accurately.
PRO: anyone can pick up the file and mimic d20 rules enough to handle that specific character.
CON: the format MUST be clever enough to explain the d20 rules involved in the calculations so that you don't have to program a lot of logic except to read the XML file and understand it.
What Twin Rose and PCGen are discussing (if my understanding is correct) is (1). Data that is transferrable between their respective programs. No one will be able to pick up a character file from Twin Rose and understand the d20 ruleset behind that character.
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dvvega
Explorer
DarkSir said:True, but to those of us that have had some time to work with the character files, they are extremely flexible, when it comes to making character sheets and usable applications from them.
But that is exactly what I was saying ... you will have to do program logic behind it all. What happens if the character data says Strength 18 but this strength is actually from a variety of sources: base 15, +1 level bonus, +2 gauntlets of ogre power.
If the XML file generated from any program doesn't list this explicity modifier progression, any program reading that character file will have to do extrapolation on the character and essentially guess where the adjustments came from.
Yes it would be easy to guess the +2 from the gauntlets, but the +1 level bonus wouldn't be easy. What if the base was 16 in reality and another ability had received the bonus.
And this is part of the reason why (as far as I can tell) that the d20XML community hasn't agreed to a standard.
Luke said:
Mynex has stated on the CMP boards:
" And to make it perfectly clear, this is to software makers... the end users can most certainly do whatever they like (legally) with the data they want to... but if software makers start adding abilities and statements of 'IMPORTS E-TOOLS AND PCGEN DATA FILES!!!" then there will be issues."
My interpretation of this is that one could write a program that imports these files. But one would need permission from WOTC to use the ETools name and permission from Bryan to use the PCGen name.
I'm not a lawyer. Anyone care to explain how that is possible? OpenOffice from Sun freely mentions that they can open Microsoft Word documents. Microsoft gave them permission to do that? I think not. Lots and lots of software products mention that they can read formats of other programs. Seems like a pretty well established position.smetzger said:
It's amusing that the folks who started PCGen have now become such champions of what is right and wrong.
soulcatcher
First Post
DMFTodd said:
It's the OGL. Since the data sets are coverd by the OGL, the OGL gives pcgen, and Wizards of the Coast certain rights. One of those rights is the ability to deny another company the ability to claim combatablilty with your product (as I understand it).
Also, in general, (once again, my opinion, not the BoD) no one seems to have a problem with other software reading in our final product - character sheets. That's USER data. Just like reading an MS Word Document in OpenOffice - USER data. We don't own that data, and we never claimed to.
What bothers people is when another program picks up our source code (cause the lst files are essentially a mini-programming language) and then tries to put it in their program, and then attempts to generate income from that.
How would you feel Todd if someone got ahold of the DM's Familiar source, and used parts of it to make another app, and then charged people for it - you would be pretty pissed, I'm sure. Simply put, it's the same thing for us, EXCEPT that we give our application away for free, and we give the source away under a license that allows people to give something back to the OPEN roleplaying community.
DMFTodd said:
Hey - we are the ones, along with some other projects like OpenRPG that put our time, energy, and sometimes money into creating programs for the roleplaying community, and we are doing it without asking for compensation. (I'm not CMP, and neither are the vast majority of people involved with pcgen - nor is ANYONE who is involved with GMGen.) We do this for the love of it, and for the love of gaming. If you have a problem with those motives, fine - but I think that gives us at least a little credibility.
Devon Jones
GMGen Regent
PCGen BoD
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