Cleave Whirlwind Combo

[EOL]

Okay, last I heard the offical clarification was that cleave could be used with whirlwind which leads to ridiculous situations like the "bucket of snails". While I assume that most of you draw the line at purposely summoning monsters weak monsters to take advantage of this. How many of you have disallowed using cleave with whirlwind all together? How many of you allow it in a limited fashion? And how many allow it without any restriction no matter how ridiculous it gets?

At the moment I allow it as long as the players don't get crazy, but I'm thinking of disallowing it all together. What's the consensus?

 

[pontus]

The way I run it is very simple:

Player declares in which order he intends to strike his opponents with the whirlwind attack (if he says nothing then clockwise, starting at the norhmost opponent is assumed).

When the player gets a cleave attack he makes it against the next target in line. If he declares he's going to strike in the order a, b, c then he can only make a cleave attack at b when he downs a.

 

[EOL]

The way I run it is very simple:

Player declares in which order he intends to strike his opponents with the whirlwind attack (if he says nothing then clockwise, starting at the norhmost opponent is assumed).

When the player gets a cleave attack he makes it against the next target in line. If he declares he's going to strike in the order a, b, c then he can only make a cleave attack at b when he downs a.

I like that idea it makes a certain amount of sense that his combo should already be set, but I do have a question, does he get another attack on b (as part of the whirlwind) in addition to his cleave?

 

[KarinsDad]

I like that idea it makes a certain amount of sense that his combo should already be set, but I do have a question, does he get another attack on b (as part of the whirlwind) in addition to his cleave?

He would have to. Otherwise, it is not a cleave / whirlwind combination, it is merely a whirlwind.

In addition, I would favor the character declaring the first opponent and a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction. More of a single spinning whirlwind as opposed to one where you can pick and choose the order in which you attack.

 

[The Furious Puffin]

Don't Mind in the least

I really don't care in the least ;-)

Why? because this dreaded combo of doom isn't that great. Unless the whirlwinder is a hasted ranger thief mage arcance trickster with a ring of blinking the combo isn't even that bad. (Other nasty option: Vorpal Mr.Ginsu doom)

Why?

No 5 foot step with those cleave attacks. If my party members are surronded with creatures there is never a big guy there as well (The minions are always in front.) So no drop 7 weak creatures to get 7 attacks on the big boss. The eighth creature is likely to be as weak as the first seven. If there was a 5 foot step before the cleave action I would be worried, but. (Note: A great samurai with Greater Cleave and Whirlwind can destory an entire army in 6 seconds - but thats a different matter ;-)

Also - have you every noticed that the damage characters can dish-out rarely increases as fast as their level. When whirlwind + great cleave becomes an option the characters can rarely drop the monsters in one attack. And if the whirlwinder *fails* to drop the the slavering bad guys around him he is in dire trouble. Therefore Cleaving+Whirlwind doom doesn't worry me at all.

The summoning of small critters is a plan that I haven't seen yet. But even then I am blithly unconcerned. If the party spell caster wishes to waste time casting a 3rd level spell as a full round action to get 1d4+1 extra attacks for the fighter it's fine by me. It also beats me why he just doesn't cast haste instead? (5 extra attacks minimum due to partial actions and +4 AC bonus? I know what *I* want!) AND the spell caster is likely to get disrupted. The BEST technique for small summoned critters is not scarifical lambs - its to get the thief to be able to take sneak attacks.

 

[EOL]

In addition, I would favor the character declaring the first opponent and a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction. More of a single spinning whirlwind as opposed to one where you can pick and choose the order in which you attack.

Is that how you run it in your campaign or has it not come up yet?

 

[EOL]

Re: Don't Mind in the least

I really don't care in the least ;-)

No 5 foot step with those cleave attacks. If my party members are surronded with creatures there is never a big guy there as well (The minions are always in front.) So no drop 7 weak creatures to get 7 attacks on the big boss. The eighth creature is likely to be as weak as the first seven. If there was a 5 foot step before the cleave action I would be worried, but. (Note: A great samurai with Greater Cleave and Whirlwind can destory an entire army in 6 seconds - but thats a different matter ;-)

There's never a big guy around? You've never had a situation where the character is say surrounded by some bugbear warriors and a bugbear chief for example? The idea of 15 attacks at the full bonus doesn't bother you at all, even in a theoretical sense?

The summoning of small critters is a plan that I haven't seen yet. But even then I am blithly unconcerned. If the party spell caster wishes to waste time casting a 3rd level spell as a full round action to get 1d4+1 extra attacks for the fighter it's fine by me. It also beats me why he just doesn't cast haste instead? (5 extra attacks minimum due to partial actions and +4 AC bonus? I know what *I* want!) AND the spell caster is likely to get disrupted. The BEST technique for small summoned critters is not scarifical lambs - its to get the thief to be able to take sneak attacks.

Let's assume through some over sight on your part you created a Dragon's Lair full of bats (it was late you were trying to watch Letterman and plan the adventure). Combat starts the fighter closes with the dragon and asks how many bats are flying around his head, off the cuff you say 50, he then proceeds to make 50 cleave attacks into the dragon. You don't stop him, you don't make a DM judgement call you just let him proceed secure in the knowledge that it's not broken?

 

[UofMDude]

Ok, so a player spends a billion feats on this combo (he pretty much has to be a fighter or be a 15th level human/18th level non-human) needing:

Power Attack
Cleave
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Expertise
Whirlwind

That's 7 feats plus needing 13 Str, Dex, and Int.

And you're worried he might find some situations where he might get an extra couple of attacks out of his whirlwind? Sheesh! The whole dodge/mobility/spring attack chain sucks for fighters up until they get whirlwind. Let them use it for gosh sakes!

UofMDude

 

[WaterRabbit]

If your really worried about this combo there is a very simple fix. You may only cleave a creature one per round. Which makes sense in light of the feat.

 

[Caliban]

If your really worried about this combo there is a very simple fix. You may only cleave a creature one per round. Which makes sense in light of the feat.

Normally the combo uses Great Cleave and Whirlwind, so you can cleave multiple times in a round.