Cleric changes explained (Podcast)

That's exactly what I am thinking though, because the Warlord as written in the PHB is one of the strongest leaders in the game. If you honestly think you needed MP1/2 to make the warlord good, you never saw a mostly PHB Warlord using the likes of Relentless Assault (which was nerfed). Not to mention even nerfed, Relentless Assault blows ANYTHING a epic cleric has out of the water and right to the top of Mt Everest. Then you have Lead the Attack or "Bring the alpha strike to the party" enabler. Again, even nerfed it's *still* one of the best powers a Warlord has.
This would be wrong, it is far more accurate to say they just get more great options on top of already delicious and great options. This would be true of the Cleric, who gets a lot out of divine power and the newer books.

PHB Warlords have: Tactical Presence (Bonus to attacks when spend AP - brilliant enabler), a bonus to initiative, Lead the Attack, Commander's Strike, Battle Captain Paragon Path - particularly with Bolt of Genius (Regain an encounter attack power like Brutal Barrage or Rain of Blows? Why thank you Mr. Warlord), oh and look at the level 16 feature too BTW -, Defy Death - I would LOVE it if you compared this to the Clerics Godstrike. Go ahead, I dare you. - Stand Invincible, Incite Heroism, Relentless Assault and I could go on.

Warlords were amazing out of the PHB. They are still amazing. The Cleric wasn't anywhere near the Warlord in the PHB, even with the huge bursts. It was more obviously powerful, but when people began to figure out the system it became clear just how strong enabling was compared to outright healing.

But again, I ask you to compare Defy Death with the Strength Clerics Godstrike. Is one of these powers broken or is the other one just plain garbage and should be buffed?

Edit: Checking Char-Op, many of the warlords best powers (rated highest) all come from the PHB. But you know, that's exactly what I would expect.

Edit2: Yep, nearly every level PHB warlords have powers that are perfectly competitive with those of MP1/MP2. Well and truly disproving this point.

Edit3: How oh how did I forget one of the best powers in the game? Hail of Steel. Also right out of the PHB.

Your tone makes it really hard for me to want to continue this discussion with you. :erm:

But, I will say that if you stack warlords up next to the strength cleric I totally agree that there's no comparison to be made. They didn't nerf the strength cleric, though; actually arguably they buffed it slightly by changing some implement powers to weapon powers.

The devoted cleric still remains in the acceptable range of performance. I healed or prevented something like 800 points of damage in a fight this weekend, without using a daily power - I may actually be lowballing that, I haven't sat down to figure it out exactly. I'm guessing that's going to be competitive with what a similar warlord would have brought to the table in terms of actual contribution, if not in terms of making the battle take less time. Group composition matters a whole lot when you're making the comparison, if nobody in your group has a sexy basic attack then the warlord's attack granting powers lose a lot of luster*. I'm also in a group where 3 of the 5 characters are Con primary or secondary, so we have dozens of surges with high values, the cleric really shines in that sort of setup.

And hey, our DM can use more than a handful of minions again without me killing them without having to bother rolling a die, which I'm going to file under "good for the game."

*Breaking this point out as it isn't really relevant to how most groups play the game, but the warlord can get to be pretty unimpressive in a group with less than the normal amount of players - I played one in a group with only 3 players and there were a few cases where powers that would be great with 5 (the shot that gives everyone +stat to damage but is only [W] for the warlord for example) ended up being terrible compared to what would otherwise be subpar options (risky shot in this particular case - the +7 damage on risky shot was more than the +6 that the other one could possibly have added if both other PCs hit.)
 

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Your tone makes it really hard for me to want to continue this discussion with you. :erm:
No offense, but continually picking up your goalposts in an argument and moving them is far more rude IMO.

You asked me to compare a warlord with a cleric out of the PHB and I did so, dismantling your argument. Now you're picking up your goalposts AGAIN and changing the argument, which still doesn't change any of the previous points that killing a creature faster is far more important than trying to grind out a battle with healing reserves (which frankly, will utterly fail in some encounters and badly). Now we're apparently comparing the woeful strength cleric to the warlord - albeit I did ask you to compare Godstrike with Defy Death - but even the devoted cleric who is an arguably superior healer doesn't bring much else. When healing fails, the cleric isn't bringing anything else substantial to the party anymore. That's the problem with the nerfing of their strong secondary controller elements.

Your argument completely ignores all the points about how at epic tier, healing is no longer a very efficient strategy anymore for numerous reasons. For one thing, you have monsters like the Balor that can quite easily on their day inflict over 50 points of damage per character in a blast in a single standard action attack. On his day, you can put that damage much higher and then you can expect one of those targets to be dropped easily (due to an AP and double attack). Not to mention the Balor if not killed fast enough gets two bites of the cherry at it as well. Plus if there is a demon in all of 4E that begs to have soul stealer put on him, it's the Balor.

Then there is a Dracolich, demons with Soul Stealer or monsters that outright prevent gaining HP like the Klurichir. They're all epic monsters and they all show you how much healing can become very inefficient at epic. While a Warlord? He strives to just destroy all three before their healing punishment mechanics matter. But even if we go into heroic tier, nobody wants a pure healing cleric when fighting a tembo (albeit not that you wouldn't as no divine in Dark Sun in the first place). You want a character that's going to make that tembo dead. Again, the Warlords sheer strength in enabling is what makes them the best ranked leader in the game.

Now you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying, which probably comes across because I am not communicating my position well. I'm not saying the Cleric is useless, because healing does work: It's just healing has a glass ceiling in 4E. This glass ceiling isn't shared by the warlord, bard, shaman and ardent - all of whom bring a strong secondary role into the game as well. Before the Cleric bought an extremely strong secondary controller role into the party, which in those encounters like the Balor/Dracolich and similar meant they were competitive.

Now they just "heal" and what happens when those creatures just don't care how well you "heal"? What does the Cleric do now? The answer is nothing.

I don't know how many times I will need to reemphasize this, but I agree with the nerfs. My problem is they gave nothing back.I would have changed astral storm, fire storm and turn undead to maybe have some kind of leader riders if they were going to nerf them that much. Like make turn undead give an attack bonus vs. undead creatures until EoNT or whatever. Doesn't matter: So long as it put the leader BACK into the nerfed powers. Nerfing the powers was FINE - how often can I stress this? - but giving them nothing back and just making them awful was not fine. All leaders can heal - not to the extent that the cleric can - but to enough of an extent that it's never going to be crippling.

Leaders in my experience live and die on what else they bring to the party aside from healing. The Sentinel for example is a miserable healer and really isn't anywhere up there with other leaders for enabling. Yet the Sentinel brings a whole host of strong druid controller dailies like summons to the fight. This means that the sentinel can contribute, despite his relative lack of healing ability compared to other leaders in the game: Because he has a strong and worthwhile secondary role.
Group composition matters a whole lot when you're making the comparison, if nobody in your group has a sexy basic attack then the warlord's attack granting powers lose a lot of luster*.
This is true, but powers like Defy Death, Lead the Attack, the flat bonuses to *ANY* attack power you use that Warlords can provide show they aren't entirely dependent on characters having basic attacks. Warlords go from incredibly good to ridiculous when they have allies with very good basic attacks. They are still incredibly efficient even without it.

The first party I ever had with a Warlord - who only had the PHB and he chose 99% of his stuff from it - was a Warden, Rogue (No melee training), Fighter, Wizard, Warlock (No Eldritch Strike, back in the day!). Bearing in mind most of this used some of the more broken stuff imaginable, like huge amounts of forced movement + bloodpulse (the old bloodmage bloodpulse in fact), displacer armor (I still shudder at that armor as originally written) and similar. Only 2 PCs could really get much out of relentless assault, but believe me they did. Lead the Attack destroyed any solo encounter off the bat for 30 levels. He gave big bonuses to the parties initiative (quickening order, which was one of his few non-PHB powers I will concede), they could action point and really tear things up with the big attack bonus (ensuring near auto-hits on anything important) and such forth.

You don't need a whole party with hugely optimized MBAs to make a warlord great. It just makes the warlord better.

Again, I bring up the warlord so specifically because he's exceptionally powerful and nobody seems to dispute this. Yet look at what class - one nobody regarded as broken anywhere just about - got severely nerfed and what got barely touched. Where is the logic in that whatsoever? If any class needed adjusting, it was the Warlord and not the Cleric. Or perhaps in the end both: But to nerf the cleric this badly while not touching the warlord - encounter powers like Hail of Steel for example - is maddening.
And hey, our DM can use more than a handful of minions again without me killing them without having to bother rolling a die, which I'm going to file under "good for the game."
Wizards do this better at epic. Have you never seen the power Legions Hold, which is a close burst 20? I have. I've even seen it turned into an encounter power with archmage.

On a level of broken, the Cleric isn't touching the Warlord and on control post-PHB it isn't touching the Wizard. Of course I would point out that at the time, back in the good old days when 4E was new the Cleric out controlled the wizard. Huge area friendly bursts? Wow! Of course, this is now no longer true and the Wizard is clearly where he needs to be as a controller. The Cleric isn't anywhere near as strong a controller, but he still had that role and it was appreciated by any party. Now? Sure he brings a ton of healing, but my experience is that you can't out heal a difficult epic encounter before it goes pear shaped.

With regards to your final point: Any leader will struggle in that situation actually. With 3 PCs the chance of one being picked off with focus fire - namely the leader - is actually really high. Leaders work best when they can give the maximum amount of bonuses to the most characters, while not being targeted themselves. There is a good reason I target leaders first whenever I can in an encounter!
 
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From the podcast, it sounds like they're open to giving the cleric a power boost - just not as a controller. I found it extremely interesting that they were revising assumptions about the nature of epic battles.

The fact that they didn't give them a boost while nerfing them is standard practice - you let the players figure out the new median before you start boosting it. It's understandably frustrating for people who want to play now, as it basically puts the cleric back into "beta," but this is how these things work.

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Jester: Yeah, I clearly recall a lot of people saying that the cleric was a better controller than the wizard when 4E first came out.


I agree with this to a degree. But if what you saying is true, then they would/should have reduced the push and immobilization of Turn Undead along with the damage and AOE!
 

Turn Undead: If it's broken by feats, the feats need to be addressed, not the power. If is't broken when recharged the recharge needs to be addressed. Close burst 2/3/4 1d8/2d8/3d8, allies in the burst gain a bonus equal to your charisma modifier to their next damage roll against an undead creature before the end of your next turn, the extra damage is radiant damage.

Firestorm/Astral Storm - Nerf the size and remove enemies only OR nerf just the damage. Not all three.

Enthrall/Sacred Word - Burst 2, rather than burst 1.

Terrifying Insight - needs to apply to Cleric and Divine oracle powers only. Plenty of other multi-class friendly things were ruined already, and this one's pretty abusive.

Everything else is pretty much fine after errata (though as long as you're changing spiritual weapon it should also give the cleric CA, as it's implement vs AC without a +2 to hit).
 

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I appreciate dropping the sarcasm, thanks. It isn't my intention to move the goalposts around but as I'm posting around every other day I do tend to lose my train of thought a bit, so sorry about that.

You did make the case fine for the PHB warlord, I probably latched onto the defy death/godstrike comparison too much because it felt a little off-topic given the whole thread to this point had basically been about the wisdom side of the cleric, and that's where you got most... excited, I guess.

I guess it more or less comes down to this for me: if the cleric is good enough to get the group through what the DM is throwing at them, it doesn't really matter much how it stacks up to the warlord in exact terms unless you get them both into the same group and there's a player with performance envy or the like. Actually they probably play quite well together since they could then each specialize more heavily on what they do well... But yeah, it would have been nice for those dailies to get a little more leader-flavored love to make up for the nerfs a bit certainly. Even just leaving them as group-friendly would have probably been enough, honestly.

That there are a few epic monsters who shut down the cleric's main strength is to be expected, really, that kind of holds true for everything at epic to some degree or another.
 

That is indeed my experience with a dwarf laser pacifist cleric and an eladrin taclord in the same party (they are only level 11 though - so I can't speak much of the upper tiers) - the cleric is healy to the point that the warlord rarely heals, and the warlord can therefore focuses on having the party hit more and harder.

So, yeah, I can't see the cleric being a vastly inferior leader to the warlord even after the nerfs - sure, they play (and feel) quite different, but neither outshines the other. That said, the nerfs (other than consecrated ground - which the PC traded out for a far more flavourful spell that prevents an enemy from attacking) really don't affect the healing focussed cleric.

Oh, and I'm glad they addressed the pacifist healer feat - lets me know that letting it work with healing word until the eratta comes is playing it by RAI, if not RAW.
 

I guess it more or less comes down to this for me: if the cleric is good enough to get the group through what the DM is throwing at them, it doesn't really matter much how it stacks up to the warlord in exact terms unless ....

Yes, actually, it does and not just for player envy reasons. The Cleric has lost its niche, there is no reason to play a cleric over a Warlord now. Even the fluff reasons are gone now that Ordained Priest is a theme. All that design space that the Devs keep claiming that they are trying to open up is now filled with sub-par mechanics. Since the only thing they've been consistent and truthful on is that they will not buff subpar mechanics.....
 

No, the niche is still there... turn undead is still damn powerful, especially considering that it usually pirerces insubstantial now... the controlling aspect is still there, and the mega healing part also...

looking at the first few levels still tells me, who the best healer is...

granting an extra attack is good and nice, but you could miss, and someone lying down is dead, before you killed the guy threatening him... it is just sad, that it again comes down to dpr....

on the other hand, priest´s shield could use a buff...
 

The first 4e party I ran in my campaign included both a warlord and a cleric. The warlord's real problem was that he had to hit to get many of his cool powers to work. The cleric multiclassed into fighter, used a spiked chain and acted more like a defender than a leader or a controller. So he was atypical. Nonetheless....

I dunno, they seemed to work well alongside each other, though each was definitely different; I don't think the changes would have had a real effect on the cleric (the pit fighter errata was worse for him). Neither really outshone the other.

The cleric in my current party is far more of a debuff, zap-type cleric (kind of the opposite of a warlord in style). The only change here that effects her is the change to turn undead. Which won't hurt her a dingo's kidneys- most of her effectiveness comes from her actual powers, as it should.
 

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