Cleric design goals . Legends and Lore April 23

[Hussar]

Why should wizards be flashy? I don't recall Gandalf or Merlin throwing around fireballs. They should be mysterious and sagely.

In fact, why do wizards have fireball in the first place, and why is everyone saying "Wizards should throw fireballs"? Fireballs aren't very magical, and mechanically they aren't even all that effective. Heck I even remember some D&D novels bemoaning fireballs as something wizards shouldn't be using as a matter of habit.

Who's saying fireballs besides you?

What is being said is that wizards should do the big, blasty effects. That could be fireball, could be cloudkill, could be magic missile, could be meteor storm. Not that they should do that exclusively. But, it is the distinction that separates clerics from wizards that D&D has made for forty years. It's not like this is a new idea.

Is Zedd from Legend of the Seeker really a bizarre archetype for a wizard?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwiLw4uJNp8[/ame]

 

[Wepwawet]

This is the first thing about 5E that is disappointing and putting me off.

I always liked clerics, but I would hate to be forced to play an armored healing warrior bent on fighting heretics. And making undead flee is the most riduculous thing. You want them destroyed, not off to some other place where they can keep on bugging people (I know it's always been like that, and I always found that absurd).

I love the idea of their magic being subtle. And I would LOVE if they make clerics reflect their gods... That's something I always expected from every edition of D&D but in the end they're all the same armored cleric with a mace.
Let's wait and see but I don't really trust that they will do it

 

[Leatherhead]

Who's saying fireballs besides you?

The people in this thread. It's full of allusions to fire, fireball, fireball and other such spells being "flashy", and wizards having blasty spell niche protection.

It was also in the D&D Pax East panel. About 16:10 they start talking about blast spells, specifically fireball, being the "best" spells.

The Future of D&D Panel at PAX East - 2012 - YouTube

So if I am talking about fireball, I'm not the only one doing it.

What is being said is that wizards should do the big, blasty effects. That could be fireball, could be cloudkill, could be magic missile, could be meteor storm. Not that they should do that exclusively. But, it is the distinction that separates clerics from wizards that D&D has made for forty years. It's not like this is a new idea.

Well, not really, clerics in 3rd and 4th edition could blast quite a bit. What separated clerics from wizards were the spellbooks, healing spells, and heavy armor. But besides that, maybe there is something wrong with this tradition. The subtle clerics have been quite under-popular in my experiences. Most of the clerics I have seen played have been the smite-happy (melee or spell) kind. Heck, I have seen more groups forgo clerics for other options despite healing being more or less a necessity for combat.

Is Zedd from Legend of the Seeker really a bizarre archetype for a wizard

I don't watch T.V. anymore, and I never really cared for the Sword of Truth series. But from what I have read of it, the magic system was far more, intimate (for lack of a more diplomatic word) than what D&D is used too.

So yes, anyone from that series would be a bit bizarre to use for an archetype. But I am almost sure that is not quite what you meant.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think that I'm about to break an internet law or something by admitting that this discussion (with you and others) is altering my opinions .

You're like one of those rogue cops! You play by our own rules!

What this discussion has shown me is that the fluff is hugely important to me. A fighter who can throw fireballs is just wrong. But a fighter who worships the God of Fire and has been granted some divine power to throw an occassional fireball? That is just fine with me. That fireball that the fighter throws has to have an in world explanation that makes sense. Whether that be divine power or the residue of magic training or the fact that he has fire spirits as allies doesn't matter as long as, in world, it makes sense.

I'm totally with you. I think this is one of the areas that 4e in general really fell down on, and one of the most important things for 5e to get right. Good fluff is vital, and it's something that can help rationalize good game design.