Cleric PrCs based on domains

[retan]

When I first switched from 2e to 3e, one of the things that I didn't like at first was that all the clerics were pretty much the same. They had some domains that gave some minor special abilities, but nothing resembling the 2e spheres. Later I realized that this was partially because it would have been a huge job to create what was essentially separate classes for different religions and partially because the cleric's role in the party is as a healer and he therefore needs to have the healing spells.

One idea that might make clerics different is to create one PrC for each domain. The PrC would represent a cleric who focused on that particular aspect of his/her god.

So please come up with ideas for prestige classes for the cleric domains.

I will start with an idea I had for the Strength domain. The prestige class was based on the idea that the character would trade turn undead and good will save for powers related to great Strength. The name was based on the "Mighty contender of Kord" that I read about on these boards a while back.

Mighty Contender

Requirements
BAB: +4
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave
Spells: Must be able to cast 2nd level divine spells
Special: Must have access to the Strength domain. Anyone with access to the Feat of Strength granted power at 3rd level or higher is considered to have access for the purpose of this class.

Features

HD: 1d8
BAB: Medium
Fort save: Good
Ref save: Poor
Will save: Poor

Class Skills: Climb (str), Concentration (con), Craft (int), heal (wis), intimidate (cha), jump (str), knowledge (religion) (int), profession (wis), scry (int), spellcraft (int), swim (str).

Skill Points: 2+ int modifier.

Weapons & Armor: All simple weapons, all armor, and shields.

Spells per day: You continue advancing in spellcasting ability as if you continued to gain levels in the divine spellcasting class that you belonged to previously. Your domain powers also increase in effect. You do not gain any other benefit of a higher level in your previous class such as increased ability to turn undead.

Extreme Effort: At 1st level, if you spend a full-round action, you may gain a +2 bonus on a strength check or a skill check that uses strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level and +6 at 9th level.

Feat of Strength: At 3rd and 10th level, you may use the Feat of Strength granted power one additional time per day.

Supreme Cleave: At 7th level, you may make a 5’ step between cleave or great cleave attacks.

-- Retan

 

[Noldor Elf]

Perhaps instead of all Domain powers just the Strength domain? Otherwise it would cost a cleric only the power to turn undead to advance in this Prc instead of staying as cleric.

 

[Clay_More]

If you want, I could show you my deities when I get the opportunity. Each deity has at least one specific cleric-class, some of which are quite different from the standard cleric. There are monk/cleric classes, clerics that have low bab/HD but more spells and skills etc. If I found the time, the paladin could even be woven into the system, as an alternative cleric class. It does really add alot of flavour to a campaign, that one deity has sissy clerics, librarians with great knowledge and lore but little fighting skills, instead of having all clerics as semi-fighters.

 

[Spatzimaus]

What we did IMC was a bit simpler. Not as much need for PrCs. Right now, you pick one domain spell per level for your bonus slot, and can swap all other slots for healing, right?

What we did:
> The domain "slot" is what spell you can swap spells of the same level for. As a result, this can be changed from day to day.
(Since this isn't an actual spell slot, you effectively have one less spell per level per day compared to a 3E cleric)

For example, Bob the Cleric has the domains Luck and Strength. At the beginning of the day he picks between Entropic Shield and Endure Elements; that'll be what he swaps his level 1 stuff for today.

Want to swap for heals? Take the Healing domain. Added advantage: you can actually swap for Heal and Mass Heal this way.

> But, you can't metamagic the spontaneously-cast spells at all, so if you want to cast it Still or Empowered or something, you have to take the new "Domain Preparation" Feat and put it in a normal slot. Likewise, you can't use spontaneously-cast spells to meet item prerequisites unless you do the same.

(This was because the Sorcerers complained, legitimately, that a Fire Cleric could throw as many spontaneous Fireballs by swapping all the higher levels down. This way, it costs a Feat AND it requires them to prepare the spell.)

Also, we changed Paladins: instead of that pansy disease stuff, they pick one domain from their deity's list. The granted power replaces the "immune to poison/disease" thing, and instead of casting Remove Disease a few times a week they can swap their normal spells for heals or something. (We also made a domain full of anti-poison/disease spells just for them)

 

[Khorod]

I do the same thing as Spatzimaus. But I don't make the player choose which domain at the start of the day. This, I think, balances the fact that there is one less spell per day.

I am also slowly working on a feat tree like the Divine feats, but each one or more domains as requirements as well. This allows some church specific customization of the channeling powers, which I think should be emphasized as the highest aspect of divine magic.

 

[Spatzimaus]

We originally tried allowing them to swap for either domain at will. It became broken once you started getting ways of adding more domains (PrCs, for example). One person pointed out a way to get 7 domains; at that point you'd have more spell selection than a Sorcerer, since by filling every slot with the same spell you'd effectively be a Sorcerer who "knew" 8 spells per level the moment you had access to it.

Under the core rules having access to spells from 7 domains isn't a problem since you only have one slot to cast them from. Allowing swapping for all 7 just isn't a good thing. So, we cut it back to the pick-1 method, and compensated in other ways. Even with the loss of the extra spell slot, it's STILL more popular than the vanilla Cleric.
Besides, it's not that bad to have to pick. Most domains have spells you wouldn't want for this sort of thing; only by mixing two domains together do you get an acceptable "swap" list.

 

[retan]

How did your system work out, Spatzimaus? I have thought about doing this but have some worries:

1: The domains are more or less balanced for the present cleric. If clerics swap for domain spells, do some domains become much more powerful than others? (The knowledge domain, for instance, seems a very weak choice in such a system because you wouldn't need any of those spells more than once per day.)

2: Does clerics with some domains take over the sorcerer's role? A cleric with for instance the sun and war domains strikes me as a fairly effective "combat mage". (He can swap for searing light, flame strike, blade barrier, power words and sun burst)

-- Retan

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by retan
1: The domains are more or less balanced for the present cleric. If clerics swap for domain spells, do some domains become much more powerful than others? (The knowledge domain, for instance, seems a very weak choice in such a system because you wouldn't need any of those spells more than once per day.)

Well, in general the domains with the semi-useless spells are the ones with good granted powers, so it's not that bad. And, since every Cleric has at least two domains, you can always pick the other one as your swap for the day.
For example, if you took Knowledge and Healing, you might pick all healing spells except for Detect Thoughts (2), Clairvoyance (3), and True Seeing (5). Never underestimate those three spells; besides, it'd still leave you plenty of healing spells. Also, Knowledge has a pretty good (IMHO) domain power (+1 caster level on all divinations, and all Knowledge skills are class skills). Leads to Loremaster pretty easily.

Or, try combining things like Air and Travel (it's United Airlines, god of airplanes); while each has a bunch of spells you'd never want, they combine nicely. Forget swapping for Control Winds when you can take Teleport, for example. Instead of the sissy Find the Path, take Chain Lightning. Gaseous Form versus Fly is a tough one, though.

It changes the balance a bit, but I actually like the new balance better. Some domains that no one bothered with before now become popular, just because being able to cast the spells more than 1/day makes many of them more useful.

2: Does clerics with some domains take over the sorcerer's role? A cleric with for instance the sun and war domains strikes me as a fairly effective "combat mage". (He can swap for searing light, flame strike, blade barrier, power words and sun burst)

Tough one to answer. You see, IMC we combined Sorcerer and Wizard into one class that casts sort of like a Sorcerer. But, even compared to the stock Sorcerer it's still fairly balanced. Here's why:

> A Sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a Cleric, no question. This isn't something you can overcome easily, especially since by removing the extra domain slot you've reduced Cleric casting to be identical to Druid in number of slots. Sorcerers can afford to burn spells on practically anything.

> Sorcerers can metamagic the swapped spells. The extra casting time hurts a bit, but it's not too prohibitive. Note that in the changes I mentioned, Clerics can't do this.

> Sorcerers don't have to follow a theme. While it may sound cool to pick the Fire domain, one Protection from Elements can really hose you. A Sorcerer, on the other hand, mixes elements up even without things like Energy Substitution.

> A Cleric still only picks one spell per level to swap to. A Sorcerer with a level 5 slot can use it to cast Teleport, Empowered Fireball, Cone of Cold, Fabricate, Extended Empowered Endurance, whatever. A Cleric with a level 5 slot can either cast one spell from his general list (chosen at the start of the day), or swap it for one preset spell. Not nearly as much flexibility.

In exchange, Clerics get armor, turning undead, better HP/BAB, and a LOT more known spells.

Looking at the Sun/War combo you mentioned, there are plenty of good spells there, but not at every level. Which would you rather swap your level 1 spells for, Magic Weapon (+1 enhancement... which stops being useful before level 10) or a nerfed Endure Elements (heat or cold only)?

You'd end up with a Cleric that can swap practically any prepared spell for an offensive spell (which is good), but you wouldn't have any choice in WHICH spell to swap to, and many of those offensive spells are either inferior to a Sor/Wiz spell or are very specialized. For raw fire-chucking power, I'd still want an arcane caster. Great soloer, though...

Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier: if you want to make a system like this, you need to increase the number of domains each deity has access to. Especially, Healing needs to be a much more common one, so that Clerics can still swap for heals if they want.
Of course, you could make an evil god with a Healing domain, so suddenly the bad guys can swap for heals too... it really tends to surprise PCs.

Whew. Long post.

 

[Khorod]

What with all the great and very arcane items in the form of staves & rods, I have a new type of item... the Sacred Relic.

Made from the bones of saints, avatars, and sacrificial altars, these items frequently come in the form of a magic weapon or protective trinket... which can also grant the user access to the spells of another domain.

Needless to say, this can get overpowered in a hurry, but one must remember that in playing with sacred relics, you have uncovered a hornets nest of fanatics, temple politics, and not a little divine attention.

Mixing it up a little more, there are Sacred Relics of varying power- a Level 1 Sacred Relic of Healing can provide access to Cure Light Wounds for any cleric who can use the relic.

Of course, its not easy to call on divine might through a Sacred Relic, and the use of one requires the right level of religious development and faith... a cleric of any religion or alignment may try to use any Sacred Relic that does not directly contradict his own, if he can make a successful Knowledge[religion] check against DC 10 + the relic's level.

While the Dark Gods might not call themselves lords of merciful healing, even among their own followers, it's thoroughly possible that a long-past high priest known to exchange blood-sacrifices for personal immortality has since had his deceased bones made into rods, wands, holy symbols, and spear-shafts that are scattered amonst the dark catacombs of the world.