Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Do nothing.
Pretend it did not happen.
That is my advice, based on my DMing experience.
Pretend it did not happen.
That is my advice, based on my DMing experience.
Cleric punishment
- Thread starter MarauderX
- Start date
Murrdox
First Post
Okay, he's a good CLERIC, not a Paladin.
His God shouldn't be out to get him or denying him spells for killing a GOBLIN. At worst, he has some legal ramifications if the Goblins should have gone to trial.
My usual dealings with characters who defy their alignment is simply to have them feel BAD about it. No real effects, but describe to him the nightmares he begins having about the beating the Goblin's head in. If it bothered him enough, I might even give him a -1 morale penalty the next time he fights Goblins... but he'd probably have to slaughter a village of unarmed noncombatant goblins before I'd do that.
His God shouldn't be out to get him or denying him spells for killing a GOBLIN. At worst, he has some legal ramifications if the Goblins should have gone to trial.
My usual dealings with characters who defy their alignment is simply to have them feel BAD about it. No real effects, but describe to him the nightmares he begins having about the beating the Goblin's head in. If it bothered him enough, I might even give him a -1 morale penalty the next time he fights Goblins... but he'd probably have to slaughter a village of unarmed noncombatant goblins before I'd do that.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Decide for yourself whether goblins are all evil. If they are, no problem.
If not, however, here'd be my suggestion:
-During the trial of the other goblins, let it come out that they're a fairly peaceful group of forest goblins who were captured and enslaved. Make them mostly sympathetic; have them promise to retreat to the forest if they're freed.
-Have one of them petition the courts for just and proper punishment of the cleric, who murdered a captive.
-Have the court deny the petition: the cleric goes free, with a warning not to repeat his actions.
-The goblin who petitioned the court approaches the cleric after being freed, and speaks a few words to the cleric: "You have killed my father, but he is not dead yet. Find me when you are ready."
-The murdered goblin become a ghost who haunts the cleric. Not necessarily a template-ghost, but rather your own ghostly creation, who can enter dreams, appear as a phantom figure, be generally scary. Eventually, the cleric will seek out the petitioning goblin, who will tell him how to atone for his evil.
Basically, turn this into an adventure. Don't rob the cleric of powers, because that feels like DM punishment of a PC; instead, give the cleric a chance at the spotlight, a chance to develop a character into something interesting.
Of course, if the player continues to be evil, the goblin ghost might get scarier; and eventually, the cleric might face censure from his church or even from his deity.
Daniel
If not, however, here'd be my suggestion:
-During the trial of the other goblins, let it come out that they're a fairly peaceful group of forest goblins who were captured and enslaved. Make them mostly sympathetic; have them promise to retreat to the forest if they're freed.
-Have one of them petition the courts for just and proper punishment of the cleric, who murdered a captive.
-Have the court deny the petition: the cleric goes free, with a warning not to repeat his actions.
-The goblin who petitioned the court approaches the cleric after being freed, and speaks a few words to the cleric: "You have killed my father, but he is not dead yet. Find me when you are ready."
-The murdered goblin become a ghost who haunts the cleric. Not necessarily a template-ghost, but rather your own ghostly creation, who can enter dreams, appear as a phantom figure, be generally scary. Eventually, the cleric will seek out the petitioning goblin, who will tell him how to atone for his evil.
Basically, turn this into an adventure. Don't rob the cleric of powers, because that feels like DM punishment of a PC; instead, give the cleric a chance at the spotlight, a chance to develop a character into something interesting.
Of course, if the player continues to be evil, the goblin ghost might get scarier; and eventually, the cleric might face censure from his church or even from his deity.
Daniel
MarauderX
Explorer
Well, to answer some of the questions you have had, here is the back story:
There is an evil organization (isn't there always?) that employed the goblins to attack some outlying villages and homes to find a certain magical item. The PCs fought them off, destroyed the clan of goblins and any remaining ran away to be captured by the EO (Evil Organization). The EO enslaved them along with the other villagers they had captured, and although they are both slaves the human slaves hate the goblins for attacking and enslaving them in the first place.
So now the PCs run into this EO camp and free the humans, and now have to decide what to do with the goblin slaves who were once attacking the villages. The whole problem lies in the goblins being utterly defenseless, at the complete whim of the party whether they live or die, and the good cleric (1 of 2 good party members) is the one that bashes a goblin.
Since they are still in the adventure to rid the world of the secret EO, I'd rather just have a simple solution to reprimand the PC for a bit. I like what Shilsen had to say, about having only benevolent spells instead of taking spells away from a 3rd level party. I want it to affect just that PC, but often if you do that you are ultimately hindering the party as well.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
MarauderX said:
Given that backstory? I change my recommendation: drop it entirely. Unless he's specifically a cleric of mercy, he's behaving in a very reasonable fashion. Here are a group of goblins who have, as mercenaries, attacked and slaughtered innocent villagers, right? Once they're captured, it's perfectly plausible for him to execute them for their crimes.
The only way that this could be inappropriate is if you, the DM, made it clear beforehand that it was inappropriate (via telling him his church's teachings about mercy toward prisoners, via making it clear that some of the prisoners were innocent, etc.) If you've not done that -- and if your adventure predates the Geneva Convention -- then I think you need to accept the player's portrayal of a cleric bloodily devoted to a plausible sense of justice.
Daniel
Sir Whiskers
First Post
From the tone of your original post, I have to assume that it's not acceptable in your world to kill goblins just because "they're goblins". If that's the case, the cleric did act inappropriately. If the player disagrees, ask the following questions:
1. Is he ABSOLUTELY certain that the goblin he killed was one of the ones who attacked the villages? Could the goblin have simply been another who was unlucky enough to be enslaved by the EO? It doesn't matter if the possibility is remote, but whether it's possible at all.
2. Even if he's certain of the goblin's guilt, does he have the legal authorization (from either political or church authorities) to execute captured prisoners? Note: his action was not in self-defense or part of an attack on an armed gang, but a cold-blooded execution of an unarmed individual.
3. If he had killed a human criminal, would his action have been acceptable? If not, then we're back to "Is it okay to execute a goblin for being a goblin?", which you seem to think not.
Assuming that executing captured prisoners is not considered "good", it would be appropriate for his diety to punish him in some way until he atones. The diety can use a variety of methods: church trial, orders from the cleric's superiors, dreams, visitations, denial of some or all spells until a set time has passed, or until he finds a goblin whom he successfully converts to his diety (including alignment change to good), etc.
If your player is willing to go along, this could be an excellent opportunity to develop the character in some depth, while also helping to define the morality of your world.
1. Is he ABSOLUTELY certain that the goblin he killed was one of the ones who attacked the villages? Could the goblin have simply been another who was unlucky enough to be enslaved by the EO? It doesn't matter if the possibility is remote, but whether it's possible at all.
2. Even if he's certain of the goblin's guilt, does he have the legal authorization (from either political or church authorities) to execute captured prisoners? Note: his action was not in self-defense or part of an attack on an armed gang, but a cold-blooded execution of an unarmed individual.
3. If he had killed a human criminal, would his action have been acceptable? If not, then we're back to "Is it okay to execute a goblin for being a goblin?", which you seem to think not.
Assuming that executing captured prisoners is not considered "good", it would be appropriate for his diety to punish him in some way until he atones. The diety can use a variety of methods: church trial, orders from the cleric's superiors, dreams, visitations, denial of some or all spells until a set time has passed, or until he finds a goblin whom he successfully converts to his diety (including alignment change to good), etc.
If your player is willing to go along, this could be an excellent opportunity to develop the character in some depth, while also helping to define the morality of your world.
MarauderX
Explorer
I considered dropping it... but the inconsistancy with the other actions is what I have a major problem with. When the PCs wiped out the goblin clan there were plenty of prisoners that the PCs used to get information from. After they were done peacefully interogating those goblins the PCs let them go as long as they returned to the broken lands from which they came. I suppose I expected the same direction as before, but instead all of the players thought that having them make the same journey would have them pass too closely to the villages they just saved.
I had no problem with the players deciding to masacre the goblins, just had a problem with the most peaceful of the group about to slaughter them all when it's against his character's basic upbringing.
BTW the cleric's deity is a healing god, one that praises growth and rejuvenation and is opposed to violent destruction of others as a way to self-improvement.
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