Cleric (Templar) is Up

[Raith5]

lot[/I] of broken builds is not changed. I mean, whut?

The only thing that makes sense here is Mike Mearls writes an article about how nobody wanted to play a cleric, then we get this. Now that makes sense, it seems he wanted his article to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

Agree. It just seems so incoherent and random since Essentials. The turn undead nerf is an overreaction to an admittedly real problem (especially at high levels). But these changes seem to undervalue people playing the game who have invested in specific builds and powers with these dramatic rather than modest changes.

But Id love to know if there is a system or math that underpins these changes. It seems really random to me but maybe I dont have the system mastery to understand it.

It seems to me that the system of 4th ed has so many layers and caveats that it has escaped the capacity to managed and molded rationally.

 

[brehobit]

Weird things broken or left unfixed.

First of all, let me say that for the most part I'm really happy with the changes. Though I do think turn undead got too nuked (I agree with others than a 2/3/4 area would have been much better, the drop in damage was fine.) I'm also unclear on removing the divine keyword from healing word. I think they largely improved the STR cleric. (Holy Wrath, nimbus of Doom, the Tactical Warpriest powers). As someone who is hoping to play a fighter/tactical warpriest I'd say the changes there are a net win. The once/encounter limit on the special mark is a big nerf, but the power changes are a big (big) win.

However there are some things they didn't fix that really needed fixing.

• Priest's Shield. I'd have gone with making the bonus an effect and for all defenses at the very least. Even then unless it's +2 I have doubts about its usefulness. As it stands it's just plain silly.
• Divine Fortune Just really weak. Just move it to +2 and be done. Now that turn undead has been nuked from orbit the other power should not suck.
• I still want a clarification on how Battle Pyre works: I think it's really ambiguous. Do you get one secondary attack for each person you hit? I think that is how it reads, but dude, that's really powerful.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Clerics are still a great class. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will subside soon.

Turn Undead was freakishly overpowered prior to now, especially in combination with the feats that let you use it against other creature types (Dragons, Elementals, etc.).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

First of all, let me say that for the most part I'm really happy with the changes. Though I do think turn undead got too nuked (I agree with others than a 2/3/4 area would have been much better, the drop in damage was fine.) I'm also unclear on removing the divine keyword from healing word. I think they largely improved the STR cleric. (Holy Wrath, nimbus of Doom, the Tactical Warpriest powers). As someone who is hoping to play a fighter/tactical warpriest I'd say the changes there are a net win. The once/encounter limit on the special mark is a big nerf, but the power changes are a big (big) win.

However there are some things they didn't fix that really needed fixing.

• Priest's Shield. I'd have gone with making the bonus an effect and for all defenses at the very least. Even then unless it's +2 I have doubts about its usefulness. As it stands it's just plain silly.
• Divine Fortune Just really weak. Just move it to +2 and be done. Now that turn undead has been nuked from orbit the other power should not suck.
• I still want a clarification on how Battle Pyre works: I think it's really ambiguous. Do you get one secondary attack for each person you hit? I think that is how it reads, but dude, that's really powerful.

No. One hit entry, as it is a burst. You don´t roll for hits seperately on the hit line either...

I want to stress, that spiritual weapon either needs a +2 bonus, be a weapon power or is chaged against reflex. (I personally believe, a +2 rider would be appropriate.)
I see no reason, why it should be so hard to hit with it. It is just a 1d10+wis power, which is ridculously low for a single target daily that does not hit very well...

edit: Ok, since the weapon is sustain minor 1d10 Damage attack, it does seem more or less apropriate to not have it hit that often...

 

[DEFCON 1]

Clerics are still a great class. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will subside soon.

Of clerics, sure. But don't worry... another product will be released shortly that will bring about more wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[brehobit]

No. One hit entry, as it is a burst. You don´t roll for hits seperately on the hit line either...

Duh. Thanks, I missed the obvious for more than a year.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the reason the Pacifist Healer doesn't work anymore is because Healing Word no longer has the "Divine" keyword in it.

 

[Mengu]

Never liked laser clerics, still don't like them. Nothing gained nothing lost as far as I'm concerned.

I'll be glad to not see Tactical Warpriest on a Warden and Radiant Servant on radiant abusing poachers.

And they can remove the pacifist healer feat from the game as far as I'm concerned, so that feat getting hit by the removal of the divine keyword from Healing Word doesn't bother me. What does bother me is feats like Beatific Healer, and PP's like Holy Emissary that use the same "divine healing powers" wording, no longer work for their intended purpose. I expect errata to the errata to fix this back, provided the issue gets on their radar.

Overall, some of the changes aren't favorable for the game from a design stand point. I really don't mind any encounter/daily powers doing more base damage, I think their damage is entirely too close to at-will powers. At paragon levels the difference between 1d6+15 and 2d6+15 is pretty negligible, it's the effects you're looking to make use of. And it's not like laser clerics have a ton of ways to boost their damage. So I do philosophically dislike the reduction of damage. But on a personal/game group level, the changes don't affect me/us in the least. None of my groups have a laser cleric. I like strength clerics, and almost every other leader better, Warlords, Artificers, Bards, Shamans, and Runepriests are great, I'm not big into Ardents, and haven't seen a Sentinel in action yet.

 

[Kaodi]

You may ask "Well just don't use demons and undead" and my response is "Enjoy making 90% of your own monsters for an entire tier of play then".

So there is a shortage of epic tier monsters that are not demons or undead?

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, I'll have to print out the updates for the cleric in my 4e group.

AFAIK nothing that she uses (other than turn undead) changed. Damn you, break spirit and steel to glass!