Clerical spell Harm, too powerful?

[IceBear]

Well, Lucius has kinda painted himself into a corner with some of his comments. If it's ever found out he uses ANY houserule then he has invalidated his viewpoints.

IceBear

 

[FlimFlam]

Give me some ways a "typical" encounter can counter harm?

Typical means picking some common monsters from the MM that would be about the caster's level. Not all will have SR, and I'm sure most won't have healing.

IceBear

I think it would be a bit redundant to repost all the advice a lot of other people already stated as means to "avoid" or negate the effects of Harm.

 

[Darkness]

I don't support any audacious claims at all, and I challenge you to find any post where I support the claims of the ignorant Rule Nazi calling himself "Lucius Foxhound."

I don't support any audacious claims, either, and I challenge you to find any post where I support the claims of maddman75.

By the way, Dark, I've banned you from S.H.I.N.Y. Now don't you feel terrible.

Damn!

 

[Tom Cashel]

IceBear, you keep ignoring my contention that the use of multiple foes serves as a valid counter to the putative "imbalance" of Harm.

I'm calling you out!

 

[FlimFlam]

No, I'm not being stubborn. I was responding to Flim Flam's thought that house rules were for "lazy" DMs that couldn't use the rules to get around what we perceive to be an issue. As far as I can tell, the only way to "get around" harm is to use specific encounters as most generic encounters can't do anything about harm.
IceBear

But that can be said about just about any spell with as much versatility as Harm.

As another poster noted, Harm only works on a single creature. Use multiple creatures to eat up the Harm resources.

 

[Darkness]

IceBear, you keep ignoring my contention that the use of multiple foes serves as a valid counter to the putative "imbalance" of Harm.

Harm is imbalanced, though. That said, low-level summon monster could be put to good use for the tactic that you're proposing, no?

 

[IceBear]

I think it would be a bit redundant to repost all the advice a lot of other people already stated as means to "avoid" or negate the effects of Harm.

But none of those pieces of advice really works for me.

Hmmmm - stay out of reach of the touch attack. Well, d'uh, that's a valid piece of advice for anyone not wanting to be hurt in combat. Too bad that this means the monster is typically running away and not fighting back. Free XP to the PCs as they've overcome the challenge.

Also, not every monster can fly or can teleport or has SR or can cast heal.

Again, most "typical" encounters can't "avoid" or negate the effects of harm. I guess once the PCs can cast harm I'll have to make sure to only use constructs and fly-by attacks, and if I don't use those there HAS to be an evil cleric working with the big dumb monster too if it's going to have a chance to live.

IceBear

 

[Tom Cashel]

Harm is imbalanced, though. That said, low-level summon monster could be put to good use for the tactic that you're proposing, no?

Just because you're P-cat's lackey doesn't mean you can say something and thereby make it true.

Harm is not imbalanced. Heal, SR, and multiple foes (yes, even low-level summonings if the cleric is going to waste his Harm spell on them) are all simple and effective counters. And the list goes on. A rule that has checks and balances is a balanced rule.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Also, not every monster can fly or can teleport or has SR or can cast heal.

Why are you ignoring me, IceBear? Is it because my Rangers are going to stomp your Maple Leafs into the ice on Saturday?

 

[IceBear]

Good point about multiple creatures - I had missed that before.

The main problem with that is the CR of the creatures tend to be lower (if you want the same ECL) and thus not as tough as normal. So, boom, harm takes out one baddy and the rest are cannon fodder to the rest of the party. It also doesn't always make sense for there to be multiple baddies.

And I still feel that harm is unbalanced. Even Dungeon magazine said so, along with T'ed, Monte Cook, and Sean.

Nothing any of you have said will convince me that it's a balanced spell and I know I won't convince you. Fortunately for me, I don't play with you. I play with my group who are equally appalled that the published spell doesn't have a save.

We're all happy and no one in the group has accused me of being a "weak" DM, but if it makes you happy please keep calling me that. Coming from inflexible DMs I consider that a compliment (I'm kidding with that, I don't think any of us are as bad as we seem to think of the others)

Edit: I HATE the Leafs so I hope the Rangers do stomp them I just LIVE in Toronto now, but I wasn't born and raised here Trust me, it's hell when there are good games being broadcast in other parts of the country and I'm stuck with the Leafs

Also, thanks for going that "extra" mile in an attempt to be even more confrontational. Makes me what to continue, really.

IceBear