Clerical spell Harm, too powerful?

[Psion]

heres a question for those that think harm is too powerful as is

do you apply the same rules to heal? ie if you have harm do d8+1 per level then does heal do the same?

Yes, I apply the same rule for heal that I do for harm -- a save is allowed for half. However, since you can always fail a save if you choose, the change is irrelevant (unless you are undead...)

 

[AuraSeer]

::sigh::
If you want to start comparing other spells, let's look at the numbers.

The baseline save-or-lose spell (Slay Living) is 5th level. It requires a touch attack, and allows a save.

Look for an equivalent targeted spell, and you have Finger of Death at 7th level. It looks like the touch attack requirement is worth 2 levels of spell power.

Take away the saving throw from FoD, and you get Power Word, Kill-- another two levels higher. However, note that PWK has a cap on its effect; it won't work on anything over 100 hp. Apparently removing the save is worth more than 2 levels, because they had to add a limitation too.

Now for the deductive part: start at the 9th level and work backward. Take PWK and make it require a touch attack; that's worth 2 levels. You end up with a 7th-level spell with no save, that kills a touched target with 100 hp or less. That sounds like a fair spell, right? Well, Harm is effectively the same thing, yet its effect has no cap, and it's a level lower!

Maybe if it were 8th level, you might be able to argue that it was balanced against other spells. (Some would still contend that a saveless, uncapped "save-or-lose" spell should not exist in the game, but that's more of a philosophical difference than a balance issue.) As written though, Harm is clearly an order of magnitude more powerful than all other 6th-level spells.

 

[Darkness]

I think these two spells are very similiar in a lot of ways. Neither outright kill the opponent. Both require some sort of roll to effect the target (one a melee touch attack, the other a fort save).

That's a gross oversimplification. Touch attacks and saving throw checks have very different ramifications. Or success chance, for that matter.

 

[FlimFlam]

Just out of curiousity, what happens if you have a held charge (such as Harm) and try to strike a mirror image or other illusion? Does the spell get dispelled?

Oh, and before I forget... Protection from (Harming Cleric's alignment) would also prevent the Cleric from getting in close enough for the melee touch attack. I beleive Wizards and Sorcerers get this spell too. Also, since it is first level, a first level potion could do the trick as well. So there, you won't have to have just Clerics/Wizards on your side anymore to counter this spell.

I notice a lot of bad guys we go up against use potions, although they are generally healing potions.

 

[Ssendam69]

Re

Tom Cashel,

Unless your players are particularly dumb, they will not waste a Harm on the cannon fodder.

Let me ask you a few questions:

Are your players dumb enough to use it on the cannon fodder the fighter, rogue and wizard can easily kill?

Are your players dumb enough not to have a Fly or other spell type ready to use if the monster tries to escape that way?

Are your players dumb enough to use a Harm when it will not land?


All the stupid counters you and Lucius named are ones that most PC's would ever fall for unless they are incredibly dense. I don't play with dense PC's, so allowing them the full use of Harm is a mistake.

My players will bypass the counters listed by you and Lucius like hot knife through butter. If your players do not, then I don't know what to tell you.

I listed the only effective counters that specifically work against Harm. The only ones that once Harm is cast and the person has actually closed to touch combat range will defend against it.

Tell me what other methods of defense work once a person closes to melee range and has cast the spell?

 

[Tom Cashel]

And these other spells do have in-built checks and balances as well - but harm doesn't. So why do you think it's "balanced?"

Heal! For the hundredth time, HEAL! Why doesn't Heal count? Because not many monsters have access to it? By your own logic, that's not a valid argument. Harm's specific check, balance, whatever you want to call it, is Heal!

Also, thanks for going that "extra" mile in an attempt to be even more confrontational. Makes me what to continue, really.

Hey, man...that little winking smiley was meant to indicate good-natured ribbing. Sorry if it seemed confrontational...it really wasn't meant to.

I do, however, find it really funny sometimes how wound up people tend to get over Harm. Even when you tell them you're trolling, or they accuse you of trolling, they just can't resist getting swamped in the perennnial argument...

Harm itself is not worth getting bent out of shape over.

Now there's a sensible comment! Bravo!

If he'd been someone like Tom Cashel, well, he'd have no idea what he was doing... dragons would have no minions and the game would suck. Much like Tom Cashel sucks on a daily basis.

Yeah? You and what army?

 

[Psion]

Oh, and before I forget... Protection from (Harming Cleric's alignment) would also prevent the Cleric from getting in close enough for the melee touch attack.

No it doesn't. Read the spell.

 

[Berk]

Oh, and before I forget... Protection from (Harming Cleric's alignment) would also prevent the Cleric from getting in close enough for the melee touch attack. I beleive Wizards and Sorcerers get this spell too. Also, since it is first level, a first level potion could do the trick as well. So there, you won't have to have just Clerics/Wizards on your side anymore to counter this spell.

Protection from (insert alignment here) wouldn't work unless that creature casting harm was a summoned or conjured creature.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

heres a question for those that think harm is too powerful as is

do you apply the same rules to heal? ie if you have harm do d8+1 per level then does heal do the same?

My fix was to bump it up to 8th level and heal with it. (mass heal is 9th level I think they were playing might and magic a little too much when they made that spell but hey at least it doens't bring back everyone from the dead and restore all there splel points)

For 6th and 7th level I made the next level of healing following the trend given by the ealier cure/inflict spells.

 

[Isollae]

the problem with that idea Berk is that the d8 healing spells stop at 4th level, furthurmore there are no real comparable spells at higherlevels.

the designers appear to have made HEAL (6th) the arbtrary workhorse of higher level healing. if there WERE comaprable spells then this discusion would have been a meer 1 page long.

also, in support of IceBear's comment, whenever a DM begins to develop teh 'me vs them' mentality, you get into some really dangerous area.

i mean, your party are the HERO's, and they are SUPPOSED to win. scared, brused, and a few guys missing, but ultimatly win.

i say this 'cus im worried that i'm hearing a little of the "My players are kicking my butt". and that means an ego check is neaded.

iso
"...who you callin scruffy lookin?"