Clerics as spontaneous casters

[Sammael99]

I was thinking of making clerics into spontaneous casters in my campaign (it ties in better with my notion of granted "miracles"). I don't want to upset the balance of classes too much though.

If I applied the spells know per level table of the sorceror to the cleric and kept the current spells per level, would that weaken the cleric too much, do you think ? If yes, should I go all the way to the number of spells known by the sorceror ?

Has anyone tried this ? What do you think ?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've tried it and it works fine so far.

I call them "prophets", and I use the "spells known" and "spells per day" from the sorcerer list, with Cha as the modifying stat for extra spells again. I also removed spontaneous healing... if you want to be a healing prophet, you have to have that as one of your "faith abilities"

In all other respects they are like Clerics.

It is possible that naughty players might come up with abusive combinations because of a greatly increased number of spells that could be cast - but since I'm working with my mature players (and not trying to create an iron-cast general rule which will work for everyone) I haven't had any problems yet.

Go for it!

 

[Sammael99]

I've tried it and it works fine so far.

I call them "prophets", and I use the "spells known" and "spells per day" from the sorcerer list, with Cha as the modifying stat for extra spells again. I also removed spontaneous healing... if you want to be a healing prophet, you have to have that as one of your "faith abilities"

In all other respects they are like Clerics.

It is possible that naughty players might come up with abusive combinations because of a greatly increased number of spells that could be cast - but since I'm working with my mature players (and not trying to create an iron-cast general rule which will work for everyone) I haven't had any problems yet.

Go for it!

A few more questions (sorry to pester you...) :

Do you limit access to certain spells based on the deity worshipped ?

Do I also understand that you have regular clerics also in your campaign ?

What happens with domain spells ? Are they automatically known ?

Do you give access to a feat that allows more spells known ?

How does this impact druidic faith ? If you have only prophets in your campaign, are druids also spontaneous casters ? If not, what's the rationale ?

Finally, what do you find to be the most important changes ? I imagine that there's potentially more healing spells ?

Thanks for answering ! You're the first person I find who has actually tried this, and that's waaaaay cool !

 

[hong]

(never mind, should read the post before replying....)

Have a look at the shugenja from OA; that's an example of a divine spellcaster with sorcerer-style casting.

 

[Spatzimaus]

IMC, we've been trying to find a better niche for Clerics beyond simple healers. Here's what we came up with, but haven't tested enough yet:

> Clerics, Paladins, etc. are subject to Somatic Failure (a.k.a. Arcane Failure in the core rules) just like Sorcerers, except that they automatically receive a bonus (10% at levels 1-5, 20% at 6-10, etc) due to their training. Also, add the Armored Caster netfeat that subtracts 10% from the failure rate; they can use their general Feats to take this. No more level 1 Clerics in plate armor.
> Instead of the extra domain spell each level and swapping for cures/inflicts, Clerics swap any spell for one of the two Domain spells of that level. If you want to swap for Cures, take the Healing domain.
To help balance it, these spontaneous spells can't be metamagicked, can't be used for an item prerequisite, can't be used to counterspell, etc.

There's more to it, but those are the key parts.

It always sucked that Clerics ended up healing so much, and had so little variation due to their god. A priest of a Fire god should use FIRE, not healing or negative energy.

Now, this does overlap them more with Sorcerers and Wizards, but we made some changes there too, combining those into one Sorcerer-like class.

 

[Sammael99]

Thanks for all the comments.

Having pondered this and talked to one of the players in the campaign, here's what I'm thinking now : I want to keep the number of spells cast the same as it is today, I don't think clerics need more spells. In fact, I may very well ditch the additional domain spell (see below why, it's kind of the same reason Spatzimaus mentioned). In effect, the number of spells per day becomes that of the druid. The healing spell switch drops too.

That would allow an increase in the number of spells known. Here's what I've come up with :

Most of the cleric's spells known are inside his gods sphere of influence. A list of spells available must be drawn for each deity (I actually have done this already, more or less). On the left hand side of the table, you see the number of spells known inside the list. On the right hand side, the number of spells known outside the list. Note that a GM may bar the player from picking specific spells that seem completely opposite to the god's sphere of influence. Also, a cleric's domain spells are automatically known in addition to the spells mentioned here.

Does this seem relatively balanced ? I'm not bothered about being perfect, just not blatantly excessive...

 

[Jeph]

Hmmmm. This just off the top of my head:

Instread of Domains, clerics have a Portfolio Power that matches their diety. Choose from:

Good
Evil
Chaos
Law
Flame
Water
Stone
Air

Instead of spontaneus casting or getting Domain Spells, clerics can Channel Portfolio Energy. Channeling is a full-round action, and any spell can be converted into a Channeling. The strength of a Channeling depends on the level of the spell you convert.

Good:
You heal 2d6 / spell level HP to a Good elemental or outsider, 2d4 / spell level HP to a good creature, 1d6 / spell level HP to a nuetral creature, deal 1d6 / spell level damage to an evil creature, or deal 2d4 / spell level damage to an evil elemental, outsider, or undead. This ability requires you to touch the target.

Evil:
You deal 1d10 damage / spell level. Against Undead and evil Outsiders and Elementals, this ability instead heals 2d4 / spell level HP. This ability requires a touch attack.

Chaos:
Roll 1d10. The caster may alter the result by up to 2 points.
1 or less--the target takes 1d10 damage per spell level.
2 to 4--the target takes 1d6 damage per spell level.
5 to 6--All within 10 feet (including the caster) must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + spell level) or take 1d4 / level damage of a random element.
7 to 9--the target is healed 1d6 HP per spell level
10 or greater--the target is healed 1d10 HP per spell level.
This ability requires a touch attack.

Law:
Chaotic targets must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level + Caster's Wis modifier) or be unable to act for 1 round per spell level. Lawful targets gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves per spell level for one round per spell level. This ability requires a touch attack.

Flame:
A 5' cube within 30' is filled with roaring flame, dealing 1d8 damage per spell level. Fire outsiders and elementals instead heal the given amount of damage. This ability deals half damage under water.

Water:
Water in a 5' cube becomes animated for 1 round per spell level. It cannot move or perform complicated manuevers, but can manipulate objects as a creature with a Dex score of 4. It can make one attack per round at a bonus equal to the spell level plus it's Str modifier (it has a Str score of 13+spell level), dealing 1d8 damage per spell level, plus it's Str modifier.

Air:
Air in a 5' cube becomes animated for 1 round per spell level. It has a 40' fly (perfect) speed, and can can manipulate objects as a creature with a Dex score of 18. It can make one attack per round at a bonus equal to the spell level plus it's Str modifier (it has a Str score of 7+spell level), dealing 1d4 damage per spell level, plus it's Str modifier.

Earth:
Earth in a 5' cube becomes animated for 1 round per spell level. It cannot move or perform complicated manuevers, but can can manipulate objects as a creature with a Dex score of 1. It can make one grapple per round at a bonus equal to the spell level plus it's Str modifier (It has a Str of 17+ spell level). It cannot attack grappled creatures. Once it has grappled a creature, it holds it down until ordered to do otherwise.

Sound cool?

-Jeph

 

[Sammael99]

Sound cool?
-Jeph

Interesting, but not what I'm looking for. I want to keep the cleric as close as possible to what it is, but with him casting spontaneously.

 

[uv23]

I don't think moving to spontaneous is particularly unbalancing.
Choosing between spontaneous or memorized casting really depends on how you think of your clerics.

1) Memorized. Each morning, the cleric must read through his prayer book and remind himself of the rituals necessary to call forth favors from his god. Thus, he can only cast the spells that he has memorized for that morning. In moments of desperation, he can spontaneously call forth raw energy to heal or harm, or in an optional system, to cast a spell he is intimately familiar with (a domain spell.)

2) Spontaneous. The cleric has already learned all of his spells, through study, and by spending years in the church. When he is out in the field, he can call forth any spell he has learned with a small invocation.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of casting faliure due to armor. I've always treated divine magic as completely distinct from arcane magic, and by its nature, more spontaneous.

Just some thoughts. Personally, I haven't decided which to go with as I see contextual merits to both.

 

[Sammael99]

Basically, the question about spontaneous vs. prepared is this :

Is casting spontaneously an advantage over preparing ? The answer, obviously, is yes. The next question then becomes : what is it worth ? Is it worth limiting your available spells ? To what extent ?

With the table above, should I slightly increase the number of spells available per day ?