Clerics who would get spells from worshippers rather than deities

[Turanil]

Just an idea that crossed my mind:

Suppose there are no gods, or that if there are gods, the don't give spells to humans anyway. So: arcane magic draws on magical energies around; psionic magic draws from within the practitioner himself; and divine magic would draw from worshippers through a magical focus.

That is, the cleric must have something that is magical in nature and was originally crafted through arcane magic, typically a statue of the god or demon worshipped, or a temple. When worshipers come to pray, meditate, participate into rituals, or even have creatures sacrificed (in case of demon worship), they unknowingly lend some of their inner magical energies (like some psionic energy) into the focus. The cleric can thus draw on this energy provided he is next to the focus, or if not, has his holy symbol (another magical item), plus also is attuned to the focus (as reflected by his cleric level). Now, the number of worshippers determines the maximum level of spells available to the cleric. And if worshippers don't come often enough, the focus won't give so much magical energy (spells) to the cleric. For a druid a focus could be standing stones, maybe drawing power from the Earth rather than from worshippers.

Note that there could be such kind of clerics along true clerics getting spells from true gods. You could just have a few deities in a setting, along many false cults that would be called "idolatry" by the righteous Church. And you could have a world where deities don't exist or don't intervene, where a main religion would have no magical wielding priests, but where numerous cults with focus-using clerics would exist.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Flavor-wise I like it, but it could be a bit of a headache to manage for players and DMs.

 

[Turanil]

it could be a bit of a headache to manage for players and DMs.

Well, maybe it must be kept for NPCs. And for NPCs it could be hanwaved, although some charts and table would be useful.

I see that rather like a plot device. Suppose you use Medieval Player's Manual and its emphasis and special priest classes of the Christian faith. So you have a setting with a monotheistic religion, and in any case only one God at the origin of the universe and able to lend spells on its priests. So these priests are as described in the MPM, and PC priests will preferably be of those classes and that religion. But there could be heathen cults worshipping false gods or demons (idolatry), or even priests of the Church turned to evil but apparently still gaining magical abilities (spells). These would be clerics who would draw on such magical focus...

Mmmmh... the more I think about this conept, the more I see that it will pefectly fit into my medieval homebrew.

 

[frankthedm]

When worshipers come to pray, meditate, participate into rituals, or even have creatures sacrificed (in case of demon worship), they unknowingly lend some of their inner magical energies (like some psionic energy) into the focus.

:\ Why is it assumed only evil divine beings have creatures ritually sacrificed? I would expect the forces of Good would have the fewest sentient creatures sacrificed, but that still leaves non-sentient beasts, notably ones killed for food. The forces of good, not ones for taking more than needed, perhaps only ask for small portion of each food animal culled, a part worshipers could afford to spare or just a clean chalice full of blood. Neutral forces likely would accept and expect sacrifices of those offensive to their portfolio, like the LN Justice / Retribution’s ‘sacrificial alter” being the gallows, the “implement of sacrifice”, the hangman’s noose. The bulk of the creature sacrifices would still be of animals, with an occasional hecatomb [100 cattle in combined sacrifice and BBQ] on a important holyday if that is within the means of the worshippers.

 

[pogre]

This is very much how divine magic works in the Confrontation fantasy skirmish miniatures game.

 

[Turanil]

Why is it assumed only evil divine beings have creatures ritually sacrificed?

Well, by my definition "good" creatures do not kill other creatures to please their god.

But you are right that it could well be the case with this sort of cults. The only important thing is that people genuinely pray, worship, perfom rituals, etc. in front of the focus and thus give some magical energy into it, that the cleric will be able to use. So any bogus dogma would work as long as the cult's followers believe in it. As such, worshippers could be convinced that killing designated enemies of the faith, sacrificing some animals (or even humans) is okay with regard to what they believe is a righteous religion of love and justice, etc. Since gods are not there to act as a higher authority on the matter, they could do pretty much anything. I see this as a good plot device to include deceiving cults that would be weird or absurd. By the way, note that I don't use alignments in my games, but allegiances ala d20 Modern (a paladin in this system has just to have allegiance to Law and Good; but of course would lose his powers if converting to such a deceiving faith that pretends to be good).

This is very much how divine magic works in the Confrontation fantasy skirmish miniatures game.

I would like to hear more about that!

 

[The Lost Muse]

Well, by my definition "good" creatures do not kill other creatures to please their god.

They may not kill them to please their god; however, for ritual reasons, because it is ordained by thier god (wouldn't "good" creatures strive to obey?), because everybody else is doing it, and a variety of other reasons.

 

[Torm]

Well, by my definition "good" creatures do not kill other creatures to please their god.

This may be a case where intent and semantics play heavily into whether or not something is Good or Evil. All this is IMHO, of course, but just seems to me to make good sense:

If your deity calls upon you to slay sentients as a sacrifice, then that's almost certainly Evil.

If, OTOH, the deity calls upon you to slay EVIL sentients, by way of divine retribution, that is probably not Evil.

If a deity calls upon you to sacrifice animals simply for blood sacrifice or similar, that's probably bad.

But if a deity requires a feast ritual with certain dishes prepared, some of which may be meat, then animals would have to be killed to satisfy that demand, but I don't see that as Evil.

As far as this idea you've presented about Clerics and their powers is concerned, I like it - and I can also see that it could be played backwards: instead of Clerics getting their powers directly for followers, they still get their powers from deities, but the deities reward Clerics who bring larger numbers of followers to them with greater powers.

 

[sword-dancer]

Look at the bible and the Aesir and Vanir in both religions sacrificed animals would be eaten, with parts of them going to the gods.

Another Question is, is it evil that a god asks you to sacrifice yourself for your community...
Like some Kings of old were sacrificed after a time of rule or like the god could only do something very powerful if someone paid the price for it(to balance the scales)?

 

[Land Outcast]

Sorry to re-rail -the conversation is actually getting interesting-
Well... if you actually want some tables, first of all:
there should be two variables, level of the cleric and number of worshippers... you could "price" the slots of different levels, say:
to have access to 1 spell lvl 0 per day, you need 1 worshipper;
to have access to 2 spells lvl 0 per day, you need 2 worshippers;

And if you have enough worshippers to cast all the usual spells per day, you can either start getting more worshippers so as to get more spells per day of the same level OR to get spell slots of the next level. Spell level is still limited by caster level. Here would be where extra benefits come in, instead of getting more spells of the available levels, you could choose to be granted a special benefit (differen't benefits cost varying "number of worshippers").

As for the benefits:
free access to a domain's power,
a +1/+2/+x bonus to skill checks,
a +1/+2/+x bonus to saving throws,
a +1/+2/+x bonus to attack rolls,
the ability to cast one spell of a higher spell level than he currently has access to,
poison & disease resistance (Make two saves per save requested, keep the best),
bonuses to leadership,
a free augury/divination/commune per day while in a shrine,
automatically maximized CLW/CMW/CSW/CCW.