Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Don't force them, just do something to show to them that time still flows while they rest. If they're only going 2 combats most days, then they obviously feel that the world will wait for them while they rest.
Cloak of the Walking Wounded
- Thread starter dvvega
- Start date
Don't force them, just do something to show to them that time still flows while they rest. If they're only going 2 combats most days, then they obviously feel that the world will wait for them while they rest.
Very much agreed with the majority. 1 milestone is a "6 minute day" style -- and isn't what 4e is meant for. LFR is a bit too easy with 2-3 combats per mod and 1-2 skill challenges; real campaigns tend to go at least 2-3 milestones per day to keep the PCs honest.
There are plenty of ways to do this. You can design your adventures as stories, not dungeons--once the story begins, they can rest only by losing whatever the story is about; there is a ritual that's about to go off/a race for a mcGuffin that they'll lose/a prisoner that'll get sold into slavery/an innocent woman hanged for murder. This is classic -- and makes sure that PCs have a reason not to rest. If you want to make things more interesting, you could even give a multi day time limit and make sure they have enough things to do that this isn't trivial -- with some internal goals that need to be handled on the spot.
If you really need to run a dungeon (or any assault scenario, really), make sure your dungeon is alive. Sure, the encounters in the dungeon need to be disconnected enough that PCs don't end up fighting the entire dungeon at once and dying horribly -- but that doesn't mean that if they take out a room or two and retreat, that they won't have a nasty surprise waiting for them when they return--maybe they'll find a huge ambush waiting...or maybe they'll find the formerly rich dungeon an empty husk, as the denizens have heard the scent of adventurers and decided to move to safer pastures. Once the PCs start to assault an area; whether it's a dungeon, a castle, or anything else, make sure they rarely have more than a day to finish the job.
If the idea of actualy running stories (or rather, situations) bugs you, there's a more radical possiblity too. Get rid of extended rests (and even short rests) as a tactial option entirely. The PCs get the benefit of a short rest when you say so; maybe the neeed to travel quickly means they don't get a short rest when they'd like one--but when a battle extends into a giant melee, they find the surge of adreniline raising their spirits (and giving them their encounter powers back, letting them spend healing surges, etc). They get the benefit of an extended rest when you say so too -- maybe in your universe, sleep isn't enough; instead one must take advantage of healing pools -- or brief trips to the realm of the gods -- or just moments of utter peace--things you can't expect to come back to later and still find the same, to restore their health and recharge their daily powers. That way, the extended rest isn't a tactical decision on their part; it's a feature of the encoutnter, and the question isn't "we've hit too encounters and burned through our dailies/surges because we don't believe in saving resources, should we rest now?" but "ok, which of these three paths leads to another enchanted pool--because I'm pretty much down to encounter powers and at-wills.
There are plenty of ways to do this. You can design your adventures as stories, not dungeons--once the story begins, they can rest only by losing whatever the story is about; there is a ritual that's about to go off/a race for a mcGuffin that they'll lose/a prisoner that'll get sold into slavery/an innocent woman hanged for murder. This is classic -- and makes sure that PCs have a reason not to rest. If you want to make things more interesting, you could even give a multi day time limit and make sure they have enough things to do that this isn't trivial -- with some internal goals that need to be handled on the spot.
If you really need to run a dungeon (or any assault scenario, really), make sure your dungeon is alive. Sure, the encounters in the dungeon need to be disconnected enough that PCs don't end up fighting the entire dungeon at once and dying horribly -- but that doesn't mean that if they take out a room or two and retreat, that they won't have a nasty surprise waiting for them when they return--maybe they'll find a huge ambush waiting...or maybe they'll find the formerly rich dungeon an empty husk, as the denizens have heard the scent of adventurers and decided to move to safer pastures. Once the PCs start to assault an area; whether it's a dungeon, a castle, or anything else, make sure they rarely have more than a day to finish the job.
If the idea of actualy running stories (or rather, situations) bugs you, there's a more radical possiblity too. Get rid of extended rests (and even short rests) as a tactial option entirely. The PCs get the benefit of a short rest when you say so; maybe the neeed to travel quickly means they don't get a short rest when they'd like one--but when a battle extends into a giant melee, they find the surge of adreniline raising their spirits (and giving them their encounter powers back, letting them spend healing surges, etc). They get the benefit of an extended rest when you say so too -- maybe in your universe, sleep isn't enough; instead one must take advantage of healing pools -- or brief trips to the realm of the gods -- or just moments of utter peace--things you can't expect to come back to later and still find the same, to restore their health and recharge their daily powers. That way, the extended rest isn't a tactical decision on their part; it's a feature of the encoutnter, and the question isn't "we've hit too encounters and burned through our dailies/surges because we don't believe in saving resources, should we rest now?" but "ok, which of these three paths leads to another enchanted pool--because I'm pretty much down to encounter powers and at-wills.
Cormacolinde
First Post
This here is your first problem. Characters should see a minimum of 4-6 encounters per day and more. It's your job to give them incentives to keep going or to penalize them if they rest too often. DMG2 p.52+ has suggestions to help pacing. Structure the encounters and the story together so they have to keep going if they want to succeed.
That's another problem. The DMG is wrong in this regard, the pacing and encounter difficulty depends a lot on the group and tier they're at, and every experienced DM in these forums will tell you the same thing, you need to go above those parameters nowadays. I will usually give my players one lower-level encounter in a day, but most are L+2 with often a couple of L+4.
dvvega
Explorer
@mneme - My campaign is totally story based - they have no dungeon based encounters at all since this campaign takes place above-ground and in cities exclusively.
However the ideas everyone has suggested regarding time limits, red herrings, and so on are things that solve my problem on a one-off basis. These are things that cannot be sustained continuously.
@Cormacolinde - do you actually mean a creature who is L+4 or actual encounters L+4?
Because I ran an encounter when they were 7th level that was 10th level and I dropped two of the party with ease, none of them being able to hit the leader monster in question very easily but it being able to hit on anything above a 3. I had to fiddle the encounter a little to stop the creature from annihilating the party (and it was only a Skirmisher with no ranged attacks).
The comments that they should have 4 to 6 encounters per adventuring day concern me. They've been having 3 to 4 per day as I've stated before - perhaps I need to definitely push them a little harder in this regard. However, if the players/characters do not wish to do this I am not going to force them on a regular basis.
However the ideas everyone has suggested regarding time limits, red herrings, and so on are things that solve my problem on a one-off basis. These are things that cannot be sustained continuously.
@Cormacolinde - do you actually mean a creature who is L+4 or actual encounters L+4?
Because I ran an encounter when they were 7th level that was 10th level and I dropped two of the party with ease, none of them being able to hit the leader monster in question very easily but it being able to hit on anything above a 3. I had to fiddle the encounter a little to stop the creature from annihilating the party (and it was only a Skirmisher with no ranged attacks).
The comments that they should have 4 to 6 encounters per adventuring day concern me. They've been having 3 to 4 per day as I've stated before - perhaps I need to definitely push them a little harder in this regard. However, if the players/characters do not wish to do this I am not going to force them on a regular basis.
Cormacolinde
First Post
I mean encounter level +4 for hard ones, once or twice a day. I usually budget around EL + 1.5, EL + 2 for most encounters in a day.
My group has similitudes to yours, and the way you can challenge them is by attrition, by winnowing down their Healing surges and powers slowly, maybe, but so they can see things might go bad if they're not careful. This means more encounters per day, or preventing them from taking extended rests.
At first, I tended to give them encounters with high-def mobs, soldiers and such, but I realized those are just grindy. Now I put 1-2 soldiers in a group, and more artillery and skirmishers. The higher damage on both sides makes for exciting encounters and more use of surges.
My group has similitudes to yours, and the way you can challenge them is by attrition, by winnowing down their Healing surges and powers slowly, maybe, but so they can see things might go bad if they're not careful. This means more encounters per day, or preventing them from taking extended rests.
At first, I tended to give them encounters with high-def mobs, soldiers and such, but I realized those are just grindy. Now I put 1-2 soldiers in a group, and more artillery and skirmishers. The higher damage on both sides makes for exciting encounters and more use of surges.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Time passing isn't a one-off. Hard time limits are, but the fact that things change when the PCs rest is something that can and should be a stock part of the game.
When you increase the difficulty level of a fight, don't do it by increasing monster level. Do it by adding more monsters.
Oh, and a melee only skirmisher SHOULD be able to hit with ease. If you had a rogue in your party, that would become abundantly clear.
dvvega
Explorer
Well game is on tomorrow night and I will be trying a couple of things mentioned here. My first experiment is the double static damage option. If this changes things on its own then I will be happy - this means that I simply need to get the MM3 and back edit my monsters.
If the test does not work then I might try to force them into a 6-8 encounter day and see if they take to that. The current chapter of the story has a perfect situation for that but I would expect deaths if they're not careful.
Thank you for the replies and suggestions. I will post here on my results.
D
If the test does not work then I might try to force them into a 6-8 encounter day and see if they take to that. The current chapter of the story has a perfect situation for that but I would expect deaths if they're not careful.
Thank you for the replies and suggestions. I will post here on my results.
D
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