Cloistered Cleric in Gestalt Games

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I've been rolling around the idea of using the Cleric as, essentially, the divine Wizard-- the class that studies and experiments and learns the divine magic taught by their deities, as opposed to more flexible or more worldly divine casters. The idea struck me as I was working on Druid/Ranger spontaneity, and reflecting on the fact that very few races had a Favored Class of Cleric-- specifically, female Drow, as opposed to their more wizardly male counterparts.

I've also noticed that a lot of Unearthed Arcana class variants break down badly when applied to Gestalt games, simply because they make tradeoffs that you can use your other class to make up for-- a Cleric choosing to be a Cloistered Cleric in a standard game makes a big sacrifice. A Fighter/Cleric gains tremendously from choosing Cloistered Cleric, while a Cleric/Wizard would be better off sticking to the standard version.

So, what I've been thinking of doing is making a middle-of-the-road version of the Cleric and Cloistered Cleric, and using it in place of the standard Cleric. Poor BAB (warrior-priests can take an appropriate secondary class), free Knowledge domain, maybe 4 skill points, but they keep their weapon and armor proficiencies. I'm divided on Lore-- if Wizards don't have it, but Bards do, it doesn't seem like it's an ability you'd gain from being... well, cloistered.

Anyone have any suggestions? Should I leave the skill points at 2? Should I leave their Lore alone? Should I abandon this idea in favor of more productive efforts?

 

[B1ue]

On the other hand about the Lore ability, it is a class ability of the Loremaster PrC. And since Cloistered clerics are focused a great deal more on divination than standard Clerics, that is probably why they recieved the ability.

So the PHB cleric is something of a generalist, while the Cloistered Cleric is a bit mroe focused in its abilities. What do you want your class to be focused in? That would help you decide if you want to keep Lore or not. In fact, you can even grant a different automatic domain in place of Knowledge.

On a different note, why does this problem bother you in the first place? I know it seems like a min/maxer's dream, but isn't that kind of the point of gestalting in the first place? Sure, they are essentially getting a small slew of special abilities "for free" thanks to the fighter class overriding any of the balancing losses, but that is the nature of Gestalting.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

So the PHB cleric is something of a generalist, while the Cloistered Cleric is a bit mroe focused in its abilities. What do you want your class to be focused in? That would help you decide if you want to keep Lore or not. In fact, you can even grant a different automatic domain in place of Knowledge.

Essentially, my line of thought is that since characters can use the Gestalt rules to be more general-- most characters have at least two core competencies, and a well-built character can be adequate in a number of fields-- so the base classes should themselves be a little more focused.

I've followed that in a number of my other changes; Wizards automatically specialize, Sorcerors preselect some of their spells based on a dragon type, Favored Souls gain their spells from Domain selection... and so on. This is based, more or less, on the pattern established by the Shugenja, whose spells are determined by Order and by element.

Currently, I see Clerics as the most formalized of the divine casters-- the priests who have spent hours upon hours studying doctrine and theology and ritual in order to form a kind of formal, ritualized relationship with their patron. That's why, like Wizards, they're one of the few classes that sticks to prepared spells

On a different note, why does this problem bother you in the first place? I know it seems like a min/maxer's dream, but isn't that kind of the point of gestalting in the first place?

No, it's not-- I can min/max all I want from behind the DM's screen and I don't even have to use the Gestalt rules. I use them to make PCs more well-rounded and "whole" then the standard class rules do, and to provide for more character diversity.

Sure, they are essentially getting a small slew of special abilities "for free" thanks to the fighter class overriding any of the balancing losses, but that is the nature of Gestalting.

See, I understand you're going to get ability overlaps and the ability to use Gestalt to cover up weaknesses in one of your classes-- and yes, that is the nature of Gestalt. However, it doesn't mean that Gestalt games can't be balanced, and that it isn't worth my time to find ways to make them more-or-less balanced.

I want to find a way to make the Cleric distinct and desirable compared to other divine casters, while at the same time, keeping them from being the class that everyone else uses as "backup" for their main class.

 

[monboesen]

If that is your goal I would go with the Cloistered cleric (drop the lore on order not to step on the bards toes) and define a narrower spell list tailored to each god and/or ethical standpoint (read alignment).