Closing the Rotating Door of Death

[kitsune9]

More of a DM problem than a system problem IMO. Why does a DM put a temple in the middle of nowhere with a 9th level priest?

Personally, as a DM I'd only have raise-dead capable people in a location which is likely to support them for some reason, and the price would not just be the cost of material components but plot points - a quest or some such favour required.

I'm particular about religions raising the dead too. Unless someone is a fervent believer, there's no point of even going to a temple of a different faith and asking for so much as a cure light wounds, let alone a raise dead.

I try to make religion a very important aspect in the lives of regular people, and not just Dial-a-God for adventurers.

 

[S'mon]

I've only really ever had a problem with no-body-needed type resurrection, ie 3e's True Resurrection. I just ban that, and require a basically intact body for Raise Dead.

I like how 4e D&D makes random PC deaths much rarer, with 4e if PCs are dying it's because the whole party are getting slaughtered, sometimes a few pitiful survivors escape, but without the bodies, so no Raise Dead. After 19 sessions in my Vault of Larin Karr campaign there have been 8 PC deaths, in only one of those was the body recovered (from ankhegs) and Raised; and that PC got carried off and eaten by gargoyles a couple sessions later. Then 4 PCs were massacred in an attack on Orc caverns; 2 PCs escaped. And a few sessions after that a red dragon ate two PCs.

I just ran Barrow of the Ogre King from the FRCS last Monday, I had my first real TPK as the goblins killed all 4 of the PCs.

So, no revolving door of death IME.

 

[S'mon]

For me and my group, death isn't a consequence for player failure. It's an outcome that suits the dramatic sensibilities of the story, the group, and the players.

If you're running D&D, what mechanisms do you use to remove the risk of PC death occurring?

 

[S'mon]

The first part of Scurvy Platypus' solution is the way to go, IMO- no raise dead, no resurrection, nothing. The -10 hp threshold in 1e-3.x could be expanded to a percentage or a character's hit points in order to prevent massive damage deaths. 4e already does this to a certain extent, but then trips over itself by making raising the dead almost foolishly easy.

Make it harder for characters to die, but make those deaths permanent. Yes, you'll lose your characters you've played a couple years from time to time. So it goes.

With 3e I went to "death at negative CON+10" which worked very well to minimise random PC death. A mummy-rotted Rogue who'd been wandering around on 4hp did fail a save vs a 10d6 Fireball from the BBEG and expired, that's the only one I can recall.

4e's "death at negative bloodied" performs the same function and also works very well IMO. I normally require an intact body for the Raise Dead ritual, not just a fingernail or hair clipping from the corpse, and that solves the 'trivial raising' issue.

For low-fantasy campaigns I have the following tweak:

RAISE THE DYING, Level 8 Ritual
This Ritual replaces Raise Dead, and has the same level, typical cost etc. It works on one creature who has been mortally wounded. Raise the Dying requires the priest or spirit shaman to bargain with the ancient gods or spirits who hold the soul of the dying – and they do not drive an easy bargain. Effect is as for Raise Dead. The War Priest’s Level 8 ‘Raise’ power works similarly to Raise the Dying, within its more limited duration.
Mortally Wounded condition
A character who fails three death saves or is reduced to negative bloodied hp may at the DM’s judgement be classed as mortally wounded. If they are reduced to negative full hp they are immediately dead. Otherwise they linger between life and death, beyond the power of mortal magic to heal. No healing Powers work on the mortally wounded, and they may not spend healing surges. Depending on circumstances, the mortally wounded typically linger for 2-7 days (1d6+1) before expiring. They may be restored via the Raise the Dying ritual.

 

[S'mon]

No it isn't. In a game that allows players to make meaningful choices death shouldn't be random.

I like games where death is a likely consequence of poor choices or bad luck. It makes D&D more fun.

Games without risk of death can work. I played a 'Midnight' high-roleplay campaign that would have worked a lot better if our PCs didn't keep dying, but for a typical D&D dungeon-crawl game death should be both possible & avoidable with luck & skill.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

If you're running D&D, what mechanisms do you use to remove the risk of PC death occurring?

It might seem simplistic, but "dead" simply means "taken out". The character is unable to further contribute to the conflict.

This might seem strange to some folks, but I've spent the last 20+ years listening to people go on about how Hit Points aren't _really_ "damage points" but a more abstract measurement; despite things like the various healing spells ("I umm... heal his footing so it's more...secure?") and other bits that argue more for them being damage points. So, instead of trying to come up with some other mechanism, I simply leverage what's there: Hit Points and getting bumped out of a fight.

Depending on the style of game and what's been discussed with players, getting bumped out of the fight due to loss of Hit Points might be a minor thing, or a major one. For example, in one game it was an exhausted/K.O.ed deal. I just went with the rules for Energy Drain/Negative levels: Condition Summary :: d20srd.org

The 4E game I ran, it was a major injury and had lingering effects; basically it was something that followed the disease track and the character had to put up with the effects until able to get back for a proper healing fix. I can't claim credit for the idea though, as I was inspired by this:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...-edition-disease-rules-simulate-injuries.html

If it's suitable for the style of the game, penalties that a character is suffering from as a result of being taken out (dying) in combat can be treated as _serious_ injuries. Meaning that a couple of quick spells aren't going to cover it, it needs _time_ to eliminate them.

And if you're the sort of person that wants mechanics to be a reflection of the way the world works (instead of a method of resolving things), that makes an interesting statement about magic in the world and what it's capable of.

I guess my point is, I don't personally see the need to necessarily invent new things, just because I've slightly changed the assumption of the game (0 HP being taken out instead of dead); I like to try and leverage what's already there and see where that leads.

"Deathless" doesn't mean "risk-less" or "consequence-less", it simply means finding consequences that are more in keeping with my and my group's sensibilities.

Besides, it's kinda funny to have the caster and the fighter both be suffering the same mechanical affect from dying, but the in-game fiction is the fighter broke 3 ribs and a shoulder that's jacked up from having been dislocated and then popped back into place, while the caster broke their thumb.

 

[jonesy]

Ok, now I want to play in a Ghostwalk adventure called Closing the Rotating Door of Death.

- Death has become random for heroes (especially), and adventurers are dropping like flies. However they are not moving on, as someone is stealing their essence.
- There is an actual Door of Death, and someone has made it stuck in the "rotate" position. As such it is influencing fate, and causing the random nature of death while sucking souls in.
- There are monsters created by someone who are deathless.
- Raise dead and resurrection spells no longer function.

 

[Gilladian]

In my campaigns (I'm currently running 3.5 E6) player death is fairly rare just because it is fairly rare... the PCs have played about 12 hours now, and we've had one NPC fighter die. I don't know why I don't slay more PCs, but it is generally true that 1 dies per 18-24 hours of play.

However, due to the low magic nature of the game (spells top out at 3rd level) resurrection is just not present as a generally available spell. I DO have to deal with the idea that it has happened in the historical past of the campaign world (ie Prince Starbow of Greenvale was killed by assassins during the dragonwar and then raised by adventurers).

So, raise dead has become a ritual that a group of casters can use to bring back a recently deceased person. However, because it requires a group of casters all functioning together, a fairly fresh body, and a lot of motivation to get those casters together, it ain't gonna happen for just "anybody".

Returns from death become story-points, not revolving doors. My players and I seem to be happy with this, as we've essentially played this way for the past 15+ years.

 

[S'mon]

It might seem simplistic, but "dead" simply means "taken out". The character is unable to further contribute to the conflict.

That deals with the random PC death where the PCs are the winning side. What happens if the PCs are overrun by ghouls? Killed by predator animals? Fall into the volcano? Do you fudge the likely result (PC eaten/disintegrated) to keep them alive? Is there a point at which you'd rule they're actually dead?

 

[S'mon]

I don't know why I don't slay more PCs, but it is generally true that 1 dies per 18-24 hours of play.

I think many people would consider that a fairly high rate. Personally I think 1 death, possibly raisable, per 'season' of 6 4-5 hour game sessions (24-30 hours' play) to be about the ideal rate for D&D given moderately skilled play.