Cohort levels stay 2 behind PCs (fixed my math)

[Joshua Randall]

[edit] Some of my math was wrong, leading to incorrect conclusions. [/edit]

Leadership is a powerful feat, allowing a PC to attract a cohort who typically starts out 2 levels below the PC's level. The cohort then gains XP in a special manner:

Cohorts earn XP as follows:
The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).
Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.[/quote]By examining the amount of XP a PC gains per level, we can deduce how much XP the cohort would gain -- it should always be proportionate to (cohort level) / (PC level). For example, a 6th level PC with no Leadership modifiers could attract a 4th level cohort, who would gain 4/6ths or 2/3rds the amount of XP the PC gains.

Following this pattern of cohort XP gain, and cross-referencing the resultant cohort XP, we can determine how quickly the cohort levels up.

[ see attached file xp by level - PC v cohort.xls ]
[edit] The initial Excel file was wrong but I can't seem to remove it. See my post later in the thread for the corrected file. [/edit]

The problem is that the cohort cannot keep up with the PC. The cohort starts out 2 levels behind the PC (as listed in Column K, "Lag"). Things get worse from there.

By the time the PC has hit 8th level, the cohort is still only 5th level -- 3 levels behind.

When the PC is 12th level, the cohort is only 8th level -- 4 levels behind.

When the PC reaches 17th level, the cohort is only 12th level -- 5 levels behind.

[edit] The four paragraphs above were based on faulty math. The cohort will always be 2 levels behind the PC. [/edit]

A challenge appropriate for an Nth level PC will range from difficult to deadly for that PC's cohort. Is this an intended feature of the rules? Are cohorts meant to stay behind, out of danger, rather than accompany the PC?

[edit] A challenge appropriate to the PC's level will still be tough for a cohort of (PC's level - 2), but not insurmountable. [/edit]

 

[Felix]

Maybe it's designed for players to change/retire cohorts?

Feh. I say just level the cohort when the PC levels. Treat him as a character with a LA of +2. Less headaches, eh?

 

[jodyjohnson]

In your spreadsheet you have the Cohort getting Cohortlevel/CharLevel*Normal Cohort XP instead of CohortLevel/Charlevel*Character XP.

The cohort falls behind because you are basically giving the XP penalty twice.

Instead of 4th cohort gaining 4000xp as Leader goes to 7th, he gains 6000*.67*.67 which will be significantly less.

Your D and A row should match not your D and F row.

 

[jgsugden]

Cohorts should be far behind a PC in power, anyways. The feat is far too powerful. People usually look at only the class abilities of the cohort when they evaluate the power of having a cohort. They forget the most powerful component of having a cohort along during combat: Extra actions. A party with a cohort can do more things in combat than a party without a cohort. Those extra actions are akin to 3.0 haste, but they are permanent and are allowed even when the PC with leadership is unconcious.

Leadership is an optional feat. My advice: Don't use this option. It is too strong.

 

[AuraSeer]

It has always been obvious that cohorts level more slowly than standard PCs. I see that as a balancing factor for what is otherwise the single most powerful feat in the game.

Leadership multiplies your personal power at the level you take it. You (the player) effectively get double hit points and double actions per round, plus you can design the second character to fix weaknesses in your primary one. If the cohort kept pace with the PCs in levelling, taking the feat at 6th level would be a no-brainer.

However, the slow advancement imposes tradeoff between short- and long-term usefulness. A 6th-level PC will get tremendous benefit from his 5th-level cohort, but only for a few levels. But around the middle levels, the cohort starts to lag and is no longer as huge a benefit. When you reach the point where the PCs are wielding +10 swords and throwing around 9th-level spells, the cohort will become more a flanker and spear-holder than a primary combatant.

So: you can take the feat at level 6 and reap the benefits then, in exchange for having a relatively weak cohort later on. Or you can go without a cohort for most of your career, take Leadership at 18th level, and have a benefit at the top end. But you can't do both.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

In your spreadsheet you have the Cohort getting Cohortlevel/CharLevel*Normal Cohort XP instead of CohortLevel/Charlevel*Character XP.

The cohort falls behind because you are basically giving the XP penalty twice.

Instead of 4th cohort gaining 4000xp as Leader goes to 7th, he gains 6000*.67*.67 which will be significantly less.

Your D and A row should match not your D and F row.

The PC gains 6000XP to reach 7th level. The cohort should gain (4/6)*6000XP, which is 4000XP. So jodyjohnson is correct.

If we continue, the PC is now 7th and needs 7000XP more to reach 8th. The cohort has risen to 5th level, and is still 2 levels behind the character.

When the PC reaches 8th level, the cohort will have received (5/7)*7000XP, which is 5000XP, the EXACT amount of XP needed for the cohort to level also.

And we find that it's true for all levels, and that the cohort does in fact always stay 2 levels behind the leader.

AR

 

[AuraSeer]

Wow, I have totally not been paying attention; I didn't even realize this changed in 3.5. I've still been under the assumption that the cohort gets 50% as much XP as his leader.

Looks as if Leadership is even more attractive than it used to be...

 

[DarkMaster]

Here is how I do it, This allow me to overcome the problem.

Let's say the leader is 8th level and the cohort is 5th and they vanquish a CR10,

then I give to the leader the XP given to overcome a CR 10 at 8th level divided by the number of PC and I give the cohorts 2/3 (don't mind the numbers I don't have my books) of the XP given to overcome a CR10 at 5th divided by the number of PC, this allow the cohorts to follow the leader quite nicely.

 

[Joshua Randall]

jodyjohnson and Altamont Ravenard, thanks for pointing out the errors in my math. I've attached a corrected spreadsheet to this message.

I agree with the consensus that Leadership is extremely powerful. DMs need to keep a close eye on the power level of any group that includes cohorts, and find ways to challenge that group appropriately. For example, by giving the NPCs the Leadership feat, too!

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

jodyjohnson and Altamont Ravenard, thanks for pointing out the errors in my math. I've attached a corrected spreadsheet to this message.

I agree with the consensus that Leadership is extremely powerful. DMs need to keep a close eye on the power level of any group that includes cohorts, and find ways to challenge that group appropriately. For example, by giving the NPCs the Leadership feat, too!

NPC's don't really need the leadership feat - you can go ahead and give them as many mooks as they need.