Collectible Mini Game crash

[justanobody]

The only "official" minis I use were bought back in the 1980s. I use dice, old minis, counters, and frequently candy (the players get to eat the corpses of their defeated enemies!), to represent stuff on the map when I need it.

Just make sure you don't mix starburst monsters with M&M monsters or the players tend to fight over who killed the starburst. They don't fight over the treasure, just the corpses.

I wonder then since most of my minis are from the same era, if people really need painted minis? The thing started with Mage Knight to take over Warhammer with a CCG approach and it worked with reduced prep time to play, but for RPG do you really need them painted as I still use a few "silvers" mixed in or for my PC.

 

[frankthedm]

If you want non-random distribution, you have to pay for it. Check the prices of Reaper's non-random prepainted plastics and they're in line with what WotC will be charging.

Reaper's prices on their plastics come from the higher start up costs and the smaller volume they operate at. Wotc's DDM prices stem far more from the added value of the D&D name and the 'collectability' aspect.

 

[Glyfair]

[So with the top two CMGs this fall closing down shop what does that mean for the others? How will this affect roleplaying games that rely heavily on minis?

Note that they aren't necessarily "closing down shop." As mentioned, DDM is just shutting down the game, not the minis.

As for Heroclix, there is at least one offer for WizKids games, and it is focusing on Heroclix. We knew of two companies in the running, and the company gunning for Heroclix (consisting of ex-WizKids employees, IIRC) is setting up a partnership with the company looking for all/most of WizKids games (the company with the license to produce Battletech, Shadowrun, etc. from WizKids). Both companies would be releasing Heroclix product if they get the games.

It's still a bit early to say the games are going to crash. Heroclix, however, will need a quick resolution to not have a fall just from going out of print for a while, IMO.

 

[Fifth Element]

Reaper's prices on their plastics come from the higher start up costs and the smaller volume they operate at. Wotc's DDM prices stem far more from the added value of the D&D name and the 'collectability' aspect.

Okay, do you have some numbers to support the start-up cost assertion (or the volume assertion, for that matter, though I'm inclined to agree with you on that)?

IIRC the Reaper plastics are based on existing metal-mini moulds, so they wouldn't have the same costs for developing the models, for instance. They'd still have the cost of the moulds themselves (presumably they need different moulds), just like WotC, but the design and sculpting has already been done.

 

[Fifth Element]

I wonder then since most of my minis are from the same era, if people really need painted minis? The thing started with Mage Knight to take over Warhammer with a CCG approach and it worked with reduced prep time to play, but for RPG do you really need them painted as I still use a few "silvers" mixed in or for my PC.

I don't think anyone "needs" painted minis. They don't "need" minis at all. Personally I prefer using minis, and painted ones at that, but I certainly don't need them. I can use Cheetos as well as the next guy.

 

[El Mahdi]

I don't think anyone "needs" painted minis. They don't "need" minis at all. Personally I prefer using minis, and painted ones at that, but I certainly don't need them. I can use Cheetos as well as the next guy.

And Cheetos have a lower chance of causing lead poisoning (unless they happened to be made in China).

 

[Fifth Element]

And Cheetos have a lower chance of causing lead poisoning (unless they happened to be made in China).

Yes, but they lead to the dreaded Cheeto (or Dorito) Orangey Finger Gunk, which gets all over your character sheets and your books.

So everything has its issues.

 

[Glyfair]

Okay, do you have some numbers to support the start-up cost assertion (or the volume assertion, for that matter, though I'm inclined to agree with you on that)?

I used to be involved in Mage Knight (and some of WizKids other games) and ended up in a discussion online with someone who used to work in making plastic miniatures (or something very similar). This is the information I gathered from that, and it hasn't been contradicted in the many times I've discussed it since then.

The chief difference between plastic and metal miniatures is in where the cost of production lies. A metal miniature's material is a chief cost. The mold is pretty cheap (being a rubber or similar material mold), but the metal is more expensive. With a plastic miniature the material is cheaper. However, the mold is much more expense. The number he gave was in British Pounds, but worked out in the multiple of thousands of dollars (and he stated he worked with plastics during the 80s) for a mold.

Given that, to justify plastic miniatures you need a very large print run. You need to spread that cost out over many miniatures. Metal miniatures don't have that huge cost to initially create a miniature.

Now costs likely came down since then for a plastic miniature mold (if it went up it would likely be in the tens of thousands per mold given the cost he quoted). However, remember that there are often many molds to make the parts that go into a miniature. If you look at WizKids miniatures you will see that they often reused certain parts over and over (particularly in their Mechwarrior line). That fits with it being more expense to create a new mold for a miniature (or piece of a miniature). The more you can reuse the mold, the less the expense.

That also ties into Merric's law*. Part of the reason for random distribution of miniatures is to make sure it is economical to create the larger number of miniatures (you have less worry about making a miniature in numbers that sit on shelves while others sell). When you remove that ability you either need to increase cost (to balance out those miniatures you created that don't sell in large enough numbers) or have less choice (because the manufacturers can only create miniatures that are certain to sell in large numbers).

* Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The same argument does apply. That's why the price per mini for the PC packs is significantly higher than with the randomized boosters.

Yeah, it's too bad that WoTC just couldn't make some better minis and provide character races and class combos that weren't exclusively rare to move the worst offenders of the lot.

Heck, next thing they they may even make figures of the same race in the same scale? Dwarves, I'm looking at you.

 

[justanobody]

I got a dumb idea for all where no game is really involved anymore and no need for rarity or randomization. Make and sell sets.

One SKU per set.

Have some minis that are sort of common that appear in multiple sets, like with 4th editions those that would be minions.

If someone wants more of something they buy a whole new set. Seems to work for many of Hasbro's other toy lines where the "figures" come packaged in a set and do not have articulating joints.

Remember those dime store bags of monsters and dinosaurs that had Rust Monsters in them?

Cheap, painted, plastic, lots fo figures.

They just need to break out of CMG territory to find what used to work to get minis games and minis themselves back on track, and it goes for all plastic minis makers these days.

I see bags of glow-in-the-dark Zombies!!!, and little plastic army men all over the place and each is less than $10 and has a higher weight that DDM boosters, and it has the stiff plastic bags instead of cardboard boxes that DDM or Clix as packaged in.

There is another problem with the pricing is the excess cost on packaging, as with everything else, there is where a lot of the cost goes to the consumer is paying for the excessive packaging!

Why are each mini contained in their own little bags? These pillow packs could reduce space by allowing minis to ujumble together and then cause reduced packaging costs by not filling it with a void of air.

And why the high end cards as thought you are making American Playing Card Company poker decks out of plastic/paper when you sell card sleeves that people can put the cards in. Another overall product costs reduction to pass along to the consumer to allow and entice them to buy more product and help sell those extra minis to lower the costs of production of plastics.....

Thanks goodness some companies are moving towards metal and peewter again because it has become cheaper than plastic. Why not wodden minis made from compressed saw dust and clue since they are painted with varnish that will seal them anyway.

There are tons of things in the costs that could be done to reduce them, but it takes either a plant in the USA to start to do it, or convincing China to do these things and prices could be lowered in the long term.

Minis will be back, but I think now for some RPGs it will be a tough time finding new ones other than second hand markets, and Catalyst/Pinata will have as much work or more than the DDM Guild in stabalizing those games to keep minis out there for RPG use.