Colour me stupid, but...

[krupintupple]

Maybe I've not DM'd a high enough level campaign, but it seems that the arms race that most front-liners and tanks have to gain as much BAB as possible isn't really warranted. I mean, 10th level fighter, with a strength of 20 and a +2 longsword is getting like +17 to attack, which means he'll hit most any monster he comes across and that's without any weapon-type boosting feats. why the rush for ungodly amounts of BAB?

checking the d20srd, i note a few CR10 monster AC's:

11-headed hyrda: 21
bebelith: 22
fire giant: 23
clay golem: 22
rakshasa: 21
monstrous scorpion: 21

maybe i'm just really blind, but what's the big deal? please don't flame me, this is a serious question.

 

[MarkB]

Two words: Secondary attacks.

Also, what you're mostly fighting at high levels isn't necessarily monsters - it's classed opponents with decent equipment. At high levels it isn't even difficult to get an NPC's AC into the 30s.

EDIT: Oh, and check out the will o' wisp. AC 29, touch AC 29, flat-footed AC 20, and it's invisible. CR 6. I had to work hard not to kill off a level 8 party with one of those, once - turned out they just couldn't touch the darn thing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. I thought it was common knowledge that the game was designed for fighters to reliably and fairly easily be able to hit on their first attack at any level (maybe not so much on the iteratives), and that if you can pick up some cool abilities at the cost of 1 or 2 points of BAB, it's totally worth it. The only real downside to not having full BAB is delayed access to feats that require a certain amount of it, most notably Tactical Feats, which almost universally require +6, and some PHB2 ones that require even more.

It's 4E that has the arms race, IMHO. In 3.5, a Fighter should feel no particular push to keep his attack modifier as optimized as possible. I'm genuinely curious where you got this impression that it's so important.

 

[Folly]

Two things:

First: Power Attack

Second: Compare hit and AC for a +4 encounter

CR 14
Nalfeshee - 27 AC
Nightwing - 30 AC

 

[dystmesis]

A party I'm in at level 8 has AC ranging from 25 to 32... And that's just with permanent and/or day long buffs. I have no idea what crazy high levels you could reach with proper optimization and temporary buffs, just at that level!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Double Post

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Umber Hulk, Truly Horrid: AC 22 (touch 8), CR 14. What's your point?

Sure, if you don't maximize attack bonus some things that have high AC for their CR will be tough to hit, but you can always find plenty of ways to help even the odds. Flanking (+2), Trip (+4, AoO), Aiding (+2), Charging (+2), etc...

Power Attack: This is a luxury, not a necessity. Losing a point of BAB isn't going to cripple your power attack, and there's always Shock Trooper anyway. Really, if you're built around PA, you should have that feat anyway.

Really, let's put this in perspective: The difference between medium and full BAB is at most 5 points, and it takes nearly 20 levels to develop this gulf. If you're primarily a full BAB class, and you've yet to hit double digit levels and have managed to acquire a BAB of more than two points below your HD...you fail at multiclassing. The game generally expects the Medium BAB classes to be able to hit at a fair percentage, so as long as you're on par or ahead of them, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Folly]

I completely agree Stream, I was more saying that the goal of a high attack bonus is not without merit. A hitty build that I am currently playing has 10 levels of 3/4 bab, but I make up for it with feats, a good str, and special abilities.

Note that the goal I see is attack bonus and not bab. BaB is great but only counts for iteratives and PA. Since with PA you hardly ever want to PA for more than 5 anyways, not having full is not a significant penalty in that regard.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I completely agree with that, Folly. Having a huge attack bonus certainly has merit, and there will be the occasional monster with enormous AC, but I was responding to the OP, who was making it sound like losing a point of BAB is as bad as losing a caster level. Just trying to explain it's not so bad, and on the topic of compensating with high ability scores, in some cases this is an obvious plus. A Goliath loses a BAB from LA, but gains +2 to hit from the +4 str, so it's generally worth it, strictly from that perspective.

In regards to your build, my most effective "hitty" build was...a full BAB warblade. But the one everyone else in the campaign screamed bloody murder over was a multiclassed Goliath Barbarian / Martial Rogue (feats for SA). He was down from full BAB by 2 points, but had Shock Trooper to PA to his liking, and reach + Knockback to protect his pathetically low-AC self afterwards.

Note of interest: If you have Tome of Battle, you really may want to consider taking two feats for a maneuver and stance (requires the former first) if you're worried about hitting. Not only are they useful to have in general, you can then get your weapon a [Discipline] weapon of whatever discipline your stance is from. It's a +1 market price, instead of the +1 attack/damage you'd normally get from an upgrade, it gives a +1 attack, +3 if in a stance or using a strike from that discipline. In other words, it's a +3 to hit. Useful way to dramatically improve your accuracy.

 

[krupintupple]

OP here,

i should note this stems from perhaps two players in separate games i dm; although they play separately, they're both utterly convinced that you cannot detract from BAB, much akin to the rule about never giving up caster level. i probably picked this sentiment up from them, and took it as fact until it irked me enough to ask you folks today.

it stemmed, at least in one case, of a character who plays a front-liner who's refused to multiclass and stick straight fighter - citing that the BAB is superior to any class that adds 'bells and whistles' instead of BAB. my recommendation of a dip into psywar to net psionic weapon and some minor buffs was politely declined. i tried to explain that the benefits of a properly done multiclass can outweigh a single BAB, but he's sticking fighter through and though. i even suggested adding other classes, such as duskblade or knight, that give a BAB as well as some neat abilities, but he's adamant.

not trying to strong arm a PC, but just curious where this 'thou shalt not detract from thine BAB' commandment would've came from?