Combat and Roleplaying

I generally agree that 4E gave you a sense of of the purpose of your character right there in the abilities. That certainly aids role-playing in some regards, but it also limits it. In other editions, the things you do were less right there in the abilities and more in how you put them to use. These approaches have appeal and work for different people. I like 4E in that the combat play reinforces the decisions you make during character creation. It can help keep you "on the path" of a certain type of play and a certain sort of roleplay.

On the other hand, other editions give you "pieces" and a note saying "some assembly required" and nothing more. This approach requires the player to keep themselves on track and focused on the style of play and sort of character they want to roleplay. Some people are better at this approach, some people aren't. This approach certainly requires more work and some people find that more enjoyable but some people see it more as work and some character concepts are harder to make work than others.

4E supported an awful lot of character concepts, and with their hybrid system, there were a nearly infinite number of combinations. As well every class had a variety of powers that could allow one to express a number of character concepts. But this design also limited players who wanted a more "bake from scratch" sort of approach. And it can be just as frustrating to not be able to express your character concept in this edition because the pieces don't exist, as it is to attempt to express your concept from the raw elements.

Given the extremely incremental nature of character building over levels in 4e I'm going to say I'm not really seeing this argument. I mean, 4e characters are in no way shape or form rigid constructs that only do their designed 'thing'. There are 1000 different fighter builds, literally. Each of those will play a little differently based on what the rest of the party is, what you go up against, and how you play your character. The player is constantly making choices about which powers to take, which feats to acquire, which items to keep, discard, or acquire. Even if you subscribe to the idea that your character IS totally described by the sum of the things on his sheet, that is a LOT of stuff, and it includes some pretty open-ended stuff, like background, race, class, PP, ED, etc. Those all have a lot of color and you can do a lot of coloring between the lines.

I found the AD&D fighter, by contrast, to be the rigid one. It has few abilities, and most new ones are going to be a consequence of some 'stuff' you found, which you have zero real control over. At best you have the same "I just do X" that you can accomplish in 4e as well (it is still an RPG and your character can try to pull off anything basically). It is true that this means your character is not really DEFINED, but then my experience was that a lot of classic D&D PCs just never really BECAME defined. They stayed mostly a few numbers and not too much else. I'm sure plenty of 4e PCs share that fate, you can't make people RP, but when my character is a Tactical Warlord, Iron Commander, Demigod 25th level fighting against the hordes of the Abyss, its HARD not to draw SOMETHING out of that!
 

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ccs

41st lv DM
I think I've finally solved a mystery - why some people think that you don't roleplay in combat, and why they claim 4e has less roleplaying than other editions of D&D.
~~~~

Well, kind of....

See, combat in 4e takes so damned long that it eats up time that could be spent RPing in non-combat situations.
So it's not that you can't RP in combat, it's that you can only RP in combat. Almost.

I exaggerate slightly. But seriously, we did find combat took too long. We solved that though.
 

The whole 'combat is too long in 4e' thing actually mystifies me. Maybe we played it wrong, or maybe we played AD&D wrong (pretty much skipped 3.x as a DM). It seemed like combat in 1e/2e and combat in 4e didn't occupy a radically different amount of time. They were different, and the time wasn't allocated in exactly the same way, but in most cases I would say combats in AD&D took a pretty solid amount of time to run. It would be hard to set one up and run it in less than half an hour. Anything that took less I would be hard pressed to really qualify as 'combat' (IE the level 3 party runs in 2 kobolds and a giant rat, squish).

That last thing you just wouldn't run in 4e, it doesn't really meet the definition of a combat encounter in the normal sense. I mean, you COULD waste your time resolving it with combat, but why? In AD&D you wouldn't break out the minis for this 'fight' either, you'd just roll a few dice to see if maybe the vermin scattered too quick to instantly curb stomp. You can do the same in 4e, just treat it as a complexity 1 SC or even just roll a couple dice, or just narrate what happens. In all truth the whole incident would probably be some aspect of a larger SC anyway.

BIG fights, well, they really don't take any longer in 4e, as long as GM is moving on along and familiar with the rules, has some decent organization of combat, and players that are at least willing to do their own tracking. If things move along, the players stay engaged, tactics are solid, the combat resolves pretty quickly.

That was my experience anyway. I never thought there was really justification for hacking on hit points or other stuff people seemed to think was needed. Good encounter design made 4e work quite well. I think MM3 grade monsters are a lot more fun, often, but its more a matter of cooler things happening more often vs an actual problem.
 

MoutonRustique

Explorer
Traditionally speaking, that's a good example of a character who has taken a lot of HP damage. She's clearly injured, in such a way that she won't be fine in the morning. She can still keep fighting (no wound penalties), but she's on the verge of being down for the count (low HP). It doesn't make sense as a description of running through all of your Healing Surges, because Healing Surges recover fully overnight, and broken bones do not.

There's also the issue where you go from 1 HP and 4 HS, to 100 HP and 0 HS. Even if I started thinking of HS as the new version of what HP had always been, I have no way to describe that conversion process. Spending a Healing Surge to recover HP is a conscious decision on your part, and I don't get how a character could consciously decide to take a long-term injury in exchange for short-term endurance. (I mean, I could understand if you're pushing yourself to keep going in combat, and that causes long-term strain; but healing surges are normally spent between combats, and short rests are supposed to mean catching your breath.)

Like I said, it was a puzzle that I couldn't unravel when I was trying to play the game, ten years ago. If there is a solution, then that would have been useful at the time, but nothing we say now will influence how I tried to play the game back then.
I...
Sorry friend, I can't help you there. If you're looking for real-world equivalency from a translated game mechanic from one system to another while applying varied levels of realism to equivalent mechanics, but the same to different ones - I can see why it's a hurdle.

Best of luck.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think I've finally solved a mystery - why some people think that you don't roleplay in combat, and why they claim 4e has less roleplaying than other editions of D&D.

To me the reverse is not just true but obvious. Who you are is at its clearest when the rubber meets the road, and in D&D where the rubber meets the road is combat. This means that the moments that should be the most telling about and most reflective of who you are and in which your personality is at its rawest and clearest should be in combat. You can make all the pretty speeches you like when you are safe - but the things that are important to you are shown most clearly by what you will risk your life for rather than trying to haggle the merchant down to save some gold pieces, or even solving a detective puzzle.
This is an interesting post. It prompted a few thoughts in me, based on my play experience over the past few years with a few different systems.

I think at the heart of roleplaying, on the player side of things (assuming a fairly conventional allocation among the participants of player and GM roles), is action resolution. Action resolution begins with a declaration that has some connection to, or makes some sort of sense, in the context of the fiction; it then proceeds through GM-mediated framing and adjudication; before finishing with an outcome.

The RPGs I play tend to use dice to determine success or failure of the delcared action: on a success, the player (and PC) get what was wanted; on a failure, it may be that simply no success occurs (eg a missed attack in 4e; a missed strike in Burning Wheel melee combat; a failed roll to meet up with a patron in Classic Traveller), or it may be that something adverse to the PC occurs (eg a failed check in a skill challenge in 4e; a failed attempt to dissuade an official from closely examining documents in Classic Traveller; a typical failed check in Burning Wheel).

This is my take on the notion of "when the rubber hits the road": by declaring an action, the player has done two things. First, s/he has shown that there is something going on in the ingame situation that s/he cares about (either directly, or through the medium of his/her PC); second, s/he has taken a chance with his/her PC, by risking things going wrong.

How much this reveals about the character/personality/motivations of the PC can, in my view, vary quite a bit with system and context. For instance, in 4e combat action declarations tend to tell us quite a bit about the "flavour" of the PC - the steadfastness of a fighter, for instance, or the skulkiness of a rogue, will emerge in combat. This will tend to be the case regardless of the larger stakes of the combat, provided that the GM has set up the combat in such a way that it permits an interesting and dynamic range of action declarations in resopnse: it's something of a system guarantee! I find that the larger staks of the combat allow character to emerge in other ways: for instance, in choices about who to fight and who to ally with; about who to heal or leave to themselves (intraparty dynamics); choices made in skill challenges that are unfolding in parallel with, or as part of, the combat; etc.

A system like Classic Traveller has some element of mechanics-driven PC flavour - eg the player of the "diplomat" with a range of espionage-apropriate social skills is going to approach the game, and delcare actions, that are different from the player of the "handyman" whose expertise tends towards technical and equipment-based solutions. But compared to 4e I think much more of the "weight" of roleplaying has to be carried by the larger situation and stakes (which as I referee Traveller tend to be driven by the patron subsystem interacting with the world-generation and random encounter subsystems).

And a system like Prince Valiant has relatively little mechanics-driven PC differentiation, and much more of the expression of charater occurs as a result of choices made that reflect overall goals and stakes of situations. The closes thing to a 4e-style "cool fight scene with engaging terrain and synergeistic monsters" is a joust with a rival knight, but the possible consequennces are severe enough (often eg losing your gear) and the mechanics simple enough that after the first one or two times this won't be engaging and character-revealing in itself - there needs to be some larger context to give it meaning and against which player choices of action are made.

A different system again is Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic - which actually has some features that slightly contradict what I've been saying above, but which also push it slightly in a 4e-ish dirction. Each PC in this system has a set of character-specific "milestones" that specify occurences whereby the PC earns XP. For instance, in my Cortex+ Vikings game, the swordthane earns XP every time he gives a command in combat; while the berserker earns XP every time one of his allies rebukes him for his use of violence.

The way in which these contradict what I said above is that they introduce a dynamic to play which often is not about action declaration - eg issuing a command in combat, or being rebuked for the use of violence, is often just a matter of "colour" - ie the back-and-fother banter between players at the table.

The way in which thees can push in a somewhat 4e-ish direction is that often the milestones, and hence the player that they engender, are relatively distinct from the particular context of the ingame action. For instance, the berserker can be rebuked for using violence in a range of different situtaions. Which means that the system delivers an aspect of characterisation and intraparty dynamics (because many milestones are intraparty in their orientation) which is somewhat independent of the larger context or stakes of the conflicts going on. This helps emulate superhero comics, which tend in the same direction, and means that the system tends towards the light-hearted in tone.

None of the above gives any reason to think that roleplaying\ and combat, or roleplaying and mechanics, sit in any sort of tension.
 

I think something like what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is saying is why I firmly concluded, by early 2009, that 4e was a pure action-adventure game who's purpose is to emulate material in this genre, with the team of heroes that make up the party as the absolute focus.

So combat is less about the AD&D type "defeat some monsters so we can find another treasure." and more about enacting the rollicking action sequences of "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Failures always create new complications and consequences, successes propel you on to the next chamber, hallway, rope bridge, etc. If you fight some enemy it is because he's in the way, or maybe now and then because he is just despicable and on your case. Everything is in service to a relatively simply plot, but there's always plenty of room for the PCs to become more fleshed out as they make choices and decide what battles to fight.

The resource game of AD&D vintage is far more secondary in importance. It is advantageous to undertake 'good play' and not burn surges willy-nilly, but falling short is more of a complication than a death sentence. Things like potions and scrolls are certainly available and useful, they can contribute a bit to skilled play, but they can also, probably mostly, serve as minor McGuffins and plot help.

This concept works pretty well in a story now type of play, the players pick the sort of adventure ride flavor they want, and the DM obliges by giving it to them with plot twists and imaginative flourishes.
 

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